" Becominglesscasualobserver...You can also thank god hell does not exsist because that is where those who kill (and order those to kill) would go, if you beleive that sort of thing. I just don't think we need to jump into the world police role as soon as we do sometimes. Defending our soil from a known/identifiable enemy is a different matter. "

" Thanks Chris, you made the point more clearly than I did (I guess I didn't use the proper 3rd grade perspective required here) What I'll never understand is how all the anti-war folks out there think we manage to keep our freedoms... It's NOT because we're geat negotiators, it's because we win wars against the enemy. Now I understand why this paper publishes the drivel it does normally... they've got to get it down to a v e r y s i m p l e and s l o w pace for the average believer of people like Karl and FarmersGal. And Brew, I THANK GOD EVERY DAY THAT PEOPLE LIKE YOU WEREN'T WILLING TO SIGN THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE AND FACE THE DEATH OF TRAITORS. If they had been like you, we'd look surprisingly like all of those former colonies that didn't get their independence sooner. Semper Fi! "

" karl the 2nd wrote on Jan 8, 2009 12:32 PM:

"War" after all, is only what happens when communication and negotiation fails.

Really? So when Hitler rolled into Poland in September 1939 it was because he and the Poles failed to communicate.

When North Korea invaded South Korea in 1950 with the backing of the Chinese and Russians it was again just a failure to communicate.

When the Taliban took over Afghanistan and closed the schools, subjegated women, murdered Jews & Christians & homosexuals, it was really just a matter of sitting down and talking with them so we could ask how they were feeling, right?

Wow, what an astute obseravation there Karl.

And as far as serving in the military, I wasn't a sheep, none of us were. Yes, you have to follow orders, lawful orders. Thankfully for the country not all of us are beta males like Karl. "

" brew -- as I was doing something entirely unrelated to this conversation, I stumbled across the following:

"Likewise, our American revolutionaries didn't demand a socially responsible king but understood, decades before Lexington, that if people themselves were the source of all governing authority, government by a House of Lords and English trading companies was illegitimate and had to be removed. "

-- Thomas Linzey, from his speech "Natural Rights: Building a Real Environmental Movement." "

" I see Casual Observer believes that thinking for yourself is the same as living in fairy-tale land. "

" "WAR...ugh! What is it good for? Absolutely NUTHIN! (Say it again, y'all!)

casualobserver, you make the same mistake I hear every type-A personality war defender make when it comes to defending wars--you inject Patriotism as some sort of panacea for aggression, as if War is a great and noble thing, when it is nothing of the sort. The wars you mention ALL had different characteristics and reasons, and none could be, nor SHOULD be callowly lumped in the same category in order to try to "pad" the weight of an opinion.

I fail to see however, how your diatribe supports the intent of the original letter? Easy it is, to slam me and other posters who disagree, but I see nothing to convince me in your response that Obama COULDN'T use Diplomacy and intelligent dialogue to divert another war. "War" after all, is only what happens when communication and negotiation fails. As such, it is really a prime example of Failure--and maybe that's why people like you who support it can't see past that simple point? The people whom you would just brand as faceless enemies have reasons too why they use war to achieve their aims--and not are all as "sociopathic" as you would like to conveniently believe.

Lastly--"If you serve in the military, you will follow orders and not think for yourself like fairy-tale land"---Ha ha--NO THANKS! I'd rather be an independent thinker than some sycophantic sheep! "

" Part of the American Revolution was about not having any representation in government, not just taxes and profits. The Founding Fathers wrote up a bunch of restrictions on corporations to contain and control them because the government was NOT in the backpockets of companies as our government is today. In fact, one of the factors which precipitated the Boston Tea Party was disturbing reports from sailors about how the East India Company was treating their native workers in India.

"But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

Those are the principles under which our country was founded.

I do think that was a better motivated war than many we've had since. "

" My point is that the system of obedience which allows the military to work is not an appropriate way of doing things OUTSIDE the military. The military is NOT a Democracy, or even a Constitutional Republic -- but our government IS.

It's not a matter of "having it both ways" -- it's a matter of having the appropriate system in each environment.

When I worry about Big Brother, I don't want the military at my back unless those Marines are intending to defend the populace AGAINST the government. "

" Who is this draft dodger president? Did you re write the history books.
England taxed America because it financed many of the citizens to travel here and they provided an army to defend us and they shipped goods to this land to feed the people and in return wanted to collect taxes for these services. The wealthy businessmen didn't want these taxes to cut into their profits. Would we have been so bad off as an English colony? We would have eventually gotten our independence as almost all British colonies have. That war was not necessary. Where the indian wars or genocide of Native Americans necessary? Some of the wars we fought were not necessary and some were. If a prisoner returns to society and he truly changes his life he should be able to get his rights back to vote and get employment. Repeat offenders should not be able to do so. I know this is a rambling style post but I am responding to a rambling set of comments. "

" casualobserver, you got that right. "

" United- A history lesson is in order. Nothing good has come from war you say. Well, The revolution brought you a country where your lack of intelligence wouldn't prohibit you from making stupid statements. WWI & WWII preserved your right to continue your ignorance in peace. The current war, whether supported or not, has brought down a sociopathic dictator. I'd love for it to be over, and someday fairly soon I hope it is. Karl- Give it a rest. Your guy won the election, blah blah blah impeach Bush, blah blah blah. You sound like a parrot! And lastly, Farmer's Gal- You can't have it both ways. If you serve in the military, you will follow orders and not think for yourself like fairy-tale land. If Obama has to face an attack or even a threat, he'll soon realize that you can't smooth talk your way around your enemies.... and by the way, they're not in the lest bit excited about the historical signifigance of this election. They're just counting their days until we all start thinking like all of you, when we get soft and comfy, and think big-brother's got our back. Then you'll all be hoping there's enough Marines to guard the gates, and enough infantry to hold them back. "

" united we wish wrote on Jan 7, 2009 4:57 PM:

"Nothing good has come from war. "

IGNORANCE IS BLISS isnt it? "

" Its time to think above and beyond the warrior mentallity. Evolve beyond this mind set. Leave war to the warriors. Nothing good has come from war. "

" Who cares--the last thing we need is a warmonger like McInsane in the White House.

I for one, would NOT want a potentially PTSS victim running the White House--his hand could be on the big red button when he hears the Press helicopter!

And how does prisoners figure into ths rambling letter?!?! "

" The main argument for having a President who served in the military is that such experience is supposed to make the person more thoughtful and cautious before sending other young Americans off to war. It's ironic that it actually works out the other way around -- candidates with military experience seem MORE inclined towards war than those without. "

" Unless we change the Constitution, serving in the armed forces is not a requirement for the presidency. As far as the right to vote goes it is important that prisoners who have served their time become full participatory member of our society by allowing them their full rights..including right to vote. If some study while in prison and get good careers..all the better. That will result in fewer people for Mr. Moody to whine about as we support them in prison. "

" I don't know what the cost of housing a prisoner has to do with whether a person serves in the military or not, but I have a lot of respect for those who had the courage to stand up and say NO to a wrongful war we couldn't (and didn't) win. It doesn't bother me in the least that the President-elect has never served in the military. It means he hasn't been socialized in a system where your job is to do as you are told and not question orders, but rather in open society where each person should think for him- or herself. "