" fg: congrats on your football win!

my store closed last night--you all missed big sales at 75% off since Sunday!
we finished at 89% of goal-not great but not the worst!
we actually didnt have much left over BUT what we do have will be donated.

the season has taken its toll on my neck and back, I am moving very slow today. I plan to be as lazy as possible cuddled up with my heating pad, watching all the shows I have Tivo'd!
lol... "

" Just got back from Pa....david, my family celebrates "Christmas" with all the trappings--although they're not "uber-Catholic". In fact, my mom HATES the Church, and the cabal that runs it.
My Dad is less clear--silent type, sort-of.

I celebrate it with them, and my rock-solid beliefs are not shaken nor swayed by singing a carol, or seeing a manger scene. I recognize, and accept, the quaint tradition that goes with it, even if I know it all to be false.

My parents and family don't even talk about my atheism anymore. Thank dog they've stopped bugging me to go to mass on Christmas morning!

I don't feel the need to "convert" them. Atheism is a destination on a road that one must embark upon by their own will and volition. It's too bad that more don't, as the rewards are so great! "

" FG, We are in Benson, AZ and will be here until mid-February. We thought we could avoid snow, but the day after Christmas we had snow flurries. Today was 65 and tomorrow will be around 70. Our travel plans will take us to the Palm Springs area after we leave Arizona. We have 3 of our 4 kids in California who we haven't seen since July 2007. "

" Thanks, excnyer. Hope you are enjoying safe and pleasant travels. Still way out West? "

" Well we gave the auto industry money to survive. Now WE are taking out full page ads to thank ourselves. It's a good start! "

" Congratulations FG! "

" Good news for me -- I won my fantasy league! First time I have ever played, and will almost certainly quit while I am ahead. It was an interesting exercise, but it spoils the watching to have to worry about how many receptions this guy gets, and how many carries that one gets, etc. I just like to sit back, relax, cheer for the Giants and my other favorite teams and enjoy the games without worrying about all those details. "

" Agnostic:

1. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
2. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.

If you break it down, it's a-gnostic -- analogous to a-moral or a-theist. That makes it similar to the way a-moral differs from im-moral -- an a-moral person has no morals, while an im-moral person has bad morals. "

" I always understood agnostic to mean the person wasn't sure, not that s/he didn't necessarily care, though that would also fit the bill. Will have to check it out.... "

" there is a distinct difference between an atheist and an agnostic. An atheist fervently denies the existence of god or any form of a higher power. An agnostic just does'nt care. "

" None taken, just thought it was interesting that it could be taken so many ways. "

" It is, movedsouth -- no slight intended towards you for posting it. "

" I used to cross into Canada and bring back a couple of bottles or cases of Molsons XXX, never tried more. I worked with others that filled up the back of a station wagon with beer and had no problem. I once brought back some Tylenol with codeine, over the counter there, and felt guilty smuggling drugs across the border. I think the person with 5 cartons should have been informed and let go. Also the store should have the limits posted. As for the store being raided, they were WAY above what they were allowed. That was deserved. "

" Even with international borders you can bring in a couple of cartons of cigs and a bottle of booze that you don't have to declare. Why are we more strict when dealing with Native Americans? "

" Just thought it was interesting, although meaningless. "

" (Mostly they just seem to measure who gets the most media coverage. So much for Americans having minds of their own -- they respond to media propaganda exactly as programmed....) "

" Good thing those polls are largely meaningless.... "

" USA TODAY/GALLUP POLL

What man living today do you admire most?
1. Barack Obama 32%
2. George W. Bush 5%
3. John McCain 3%
4. Pope Benedict XVI* 2%
Billy Graham 2%
Bill Clinton 2%

What woman living today do you admire most?
1. Hillary Clinton 20%
2. Sarah Palin 11%
3. Oprah Winfrey 8%
4. Condoleezza Rice 7%
5. Michelle Obama 3% "

" NL, I have warm clothes in Socal. It does get cold in the desert!!! At least in Ohio, I will have a warm person to keep me warm!! "

" Too bad if the indians don't want to collect the taxes. Either do it or work with the state to set up a duty office. They want to be a sovereign nation. But if you go to Canada and come back with merchandise, you have to pay taxes on that merchandise. Should be the same if you purchase cigarettes or gas from the supposed sovereign indians.

Hey, if you go to Pennsylvania, and purchase stuff, you are supposed to pay the new york state taxes when you bring them across the border.

What is the difference here? Other than there is no border because the lands aren't sovereign? "

" coming from a very large family-I love a houseful at christmas!
My oldest son and fiance always comes Christmas Eve-after visiting the decorated House-us girls decorate cookies.
the other 2 arrived by 9am next morning..
my son was so excited to have his daughter-the first time on Christmas morning! He said she jumped up on their bed yelling 'daddy wake up,santa was here'
(only 'yesterday' that was him at 3 yrs old--lol)

for now I am glad they all are here-yet I know these days will change-so I enjoy them while I have them.
Of course each year is on video-so when I am 60 I can watch them 100 times over!

nature: yes, he's still mending-another 3 wks out of work. he was a big help getting things prepared, working split shifts I never would have had the time!
I give him credit for trying, but I am no where over the 'burn' yet! "

" Hess trucks are a real Christmas tradition. I got Hess trucks for Christmas when I was a little kid and gave one every year to my son and now my grandson. Many happy memories. Also I remember my family gatherings in Auburn and we had 25 to 30 relatives and friends gather every year. That experience is just like TV and movies portray. It was a great time. Today the family is much smaller and spread all over the country but it is still a happy time even though a smaller get together. Happy New Year. "

" Our holiday was quiet but nice also. Tried a spiral ham for the 1st time. Dog got a stuffed toy larger than him. Got a negative converter and a set of Arch Merrill books - a local writer. He was featured in the last issue of the Finger Lakes journal. You know, cm, lasagne sounds really good about now! Is the ex still recuperating under your roof? FG - I get that itch for a larger gathering around the holidays also but we never had a large family ever and I tend to think mine thoughts are TV influenced but it dipicts unreal family life. But you dont watch the tellie so? BLD: Ohio? you will have to get some warm clothes if u are moving into snow world again! And the winds are terrible the last few years! Hope all feel sated and happy and this weekend in the 50's?!? yahoo...wineries here we come getting low on port!! "

" CCL, well at least they did try calling. That is a plus for them. It's too bad you can't deduct the charge from your rent. "

" Ouch, that's gotta hurt. Me too -- I sent my package to an old address, which is why it never got to the ex and younger kid. Will have to spend another $20 for priority mail to get it there a week late. Ouch for me too.

Those overlooked details will kill you. "

" Sorry to interrupt, but here is my car towing update :) Checked my voicemail the other night, like a do about once a week. Much to my chagrin I had a voicemail from APD at 5:30 am, asking me to kindly move my car or it would get towed. My apologizes... "

" FG and CM, Glad you had a Great Holiday!! I received a few gifts through the mail. My family took good care of me!!!! They always do!! I received a very special box from my girlfriend in Ohio. She got me some really nice things. I can't wait to move out there in the spring! "

" Our holiday here was very quiet. The kid stayed up all night playing games online, so he was still up in the morning to open gifts. He seemed very pleased with his tee-shirt with the printed on "Hello My Name Is" tag -- it's filled in to say Hello, My Name is Inigo Montoyo, you killed my father, prepare to die." He also liked the Fantod Pack -- it's an un-Tarot deck with unique and peculiar cards illustrated by Edward Gorey. Then he went to bed for the rest of the day.

I was sad to hear the package I sent to the ex and younger son has not yet arrived. I usually get things in the mail by 1 Dec, but one gift just did not come in time, so it didn't go until 15 December and has not yet arrived. I sure hope it didn't get lost in the mail.

Packages arrived in Saginaw and Chicago on time, but I have not yet heard how they were received.

Farmer Guy gave me a cordless Black and Decker drill with a battery and charger and a whole mess of accessories -- which I will love, what with the new house and so on. I gave him a blood pressure monitor and a coin box which counts the coins as you drop them in. Also a little backscratcher.

The ex sent me two paperbacks I haven't read but will enjoy, 3 antique glass Christmas ornaments for my collection, and a string of glass beads, ditto.

My mom hasn't sent the package yet.

Other than that, I stuffed and roasted a turkey and cleaned up, worked on a jigsaw puzzle, sorted catalogs and chucked a foot-tall stack of them, and spent a long time online researching my players and my opponent's players for fantasy football. I have never played before, so am a bit floored to be in the championship game, which looks to be close. I'm trying to be sure to play the best guys and not lose because I had my highest scoring player on the bench (which happened to me in a major way in one game this season). And I watched a couple DVDs before hitting the sack.

I miss having more people around for the holiday, but the truth is, we have never had that. When I was married, we had just us and the kids. Now we are no longer together and the kids are grown, so it will soon be just me. I still like having a tree, and some quiet, domestic times with Farmer Guy.

But it has certainly been peaceful, and

Oh dear! The mail lady was just here returning the package I sent to the ex and younger son -- says Unable to forward! I spent a lot on priority mail and sent it to the correct address, so now I will have to call and find out what went wrong. Poo! I had better go deal with that. "

" happy DAY AFTER Christmas!
what a great day it was-even though monies were tight, we all bought and received the most useful of items.

one was OVERLY joyed with finally getting an iron and ironing board!

of course lasagna dinner was the best!

My presents were exactly what I asked for: Lady Antebellum CD, photo card for my digital camera, Face-Off DVD, and Sleeping Beauty DVD, plus a couple of Red lobster gift cards!

I bought my daughter a GPS (she so didnt expect) but shes always calling asking me to google WHERE she is and how to get her to her destination! lol

the family loved playing with guitar hero--even if 2 real guitarists laughed over how easy it was for NON guitarist, compared to them!

the 1yr old loved his hess truck, the 3yr old had a blast 'helping' everyone unwrap their presents!

best of all, everyone was here: we laughed, we ate, we loved!

I hope your day was as great as mine! "

" AJ, unable to open the movie, but my post was a reply to karl again. I omitted the quotes. I googled what is Christmas and I found that. It was just a post showing that to google something, you can always find the response you want. For someone to suggest that one does not know how to google is stupidity. There are people out there that would say to the missiah, this is the best Kool-Aid ever. "

" movedsouth, check out zeitgeistthemovie.com. Also be sure to watch the addendum.

By the way, as part of redefining Christmas this year, I suggested that we ( my family) take what we would normally spend on gifts and instead give it to charity. I suggested the St Alphonsus food pantry.

What was great is that noone had a problem with this. I expect we will be doing this from here on in. Christmas seems much more meaningful this way. "

" Merry Christmas or Solstice or whatever holiday that all mankind celebate. Peace on earth and goodwill to all. "

" So, Karl, your parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc. don't celebrate Christmas, or do currently? Man, I'd bet they do. With all the talking you do, you'd think that the people closest to you, or that you may have influence over would at least side with you............Maybe yor argument holds no water that God exists "

" What is Christmas?

The word Christmas comes from the words Cristes maesse, or "Christ's Mass." Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Jesus for members of the Christian religion. Most historians peg the first celebration of Christmas to Rome in 336 A.D. "

" Not to worry, Karl -- we celebrate Christmas as a cultural tradition, not as a religious holiday, recognizing all the pre-existing celebrations at this time of the year. At home, we have a Yule Tree, though I will usually just say "Christmas Tree" when speaking of it in public, so as not to make an issue of it.

I don't have any formalized belief system, or subscribe to anyone's specific set of beliefs, but I do believe people have the potential for good or ill, and the freewill to choose one or the other. I also believe people can make wrong choices, sometimes from the best motives or out of ignorance, and that there is a big difference between those wrong choices and the ones made purposely or selfishly.

Beyond my own way of looking at the world, I gratefully accept the kind wishes of others, including their prayers, because their motives towards me are good. I thank you and return the well-wishes.

Travel safely and celebrate goodness as you see fit! "

" Technically Karl, At perihelion, the Earth is about 147.5 million km away from the Sun the closest it gets, and that happens in January. Averaged over the globe, sunlight falling on Earth in January is about 7% more intense than it is in July. However, the northern hemisphere of Earth has more land, while the southern hemisphere has more water and that tends to lessen the impact of differences in sunlight between the closest approach and the greatest distance. Sunlight raises the temperature of land more than it does oceans. In July (at aphelion), the land-rich northern half of our planet is tilted toward the Sun. Aphelion sunlight is a little weaker than sunlight at other times of the year, but it nevertheless does a good job warming the continents. In fact, say climate scientists, northern summer in July when the Sun is more distant than usual is a bit warmer than the southern hemisphere summer when the Earth is closer to the Sun. "

" fg,
there's more to forgiveness: repent, repair, and never repreat.
no matter what other Christians have done, the 10 commandments don't change. they are the same for all of us.

Forgive but do not forget...just don't let it eat you up. Healing one's own heart means being open to God's mystery. Some people struggle with this b/c they hold on to their human qualities which closes them down.

you've never had the pleasure to meet Fr. Larry---check out this site:

http://www.thereasonforourhope.org/index.php

Thank you for allowing me to share. "

" Farmer Girl writes,
think the one that bothers me most is the Catholic confession thing -- how does the Priest know the person truly IS repentant before he gives absolution? If a person fools a priest in confession into giving absolution, would Catholics maintain that the person was forgiven, or would their God know the person's heart and withhold the forgiveness, particularly since the person has added deception of a priest on top of his/her other wrongdoings
I am a Catholic and if he fooled the priest thats wrong--but he wont fool God.God will only forgive him if he truly is sorry---it doesn't sound like it.I will pray for you.Merry Christmas. "

" And here's a new Christmas Carol for you all!;

"Cone they told me, Ba-rack-O-bama!
"A newborn king to see, Ba-rack-O-bama!
Our finest gifts we bring, Ba-rack-O-bama!
To lay before the king, Ba-rack-O-bama, Rack-O-bama, Rack-O-bama!
So to honor him, Ba-rack-O-bama!
When he comes....

etc,..you know the rest....LOL! "

" movedsouth--yes, sorry to tell ya, but the original "Christmas" was the Solstice.

What--you think it started when "jesus" was allegedly born? LOL!
"Christmas" as we now it didn't even start until like, the 14th century or something!

It was originally the Solstice--please; learn to use your googler! "

" Farmer's Gal, an interesting discussion, and one which I would love to continue, but I'll be heading to Pennsylvania for Solstice.

I understand your reasoning behind the "Effect" principle--do you realize that what you're talking about is EXACTLY the Pagan concept of the "Daemon"?
The Daemon was the "higher self" inside each person, to which all should aspire to in deed and thought.
One went about finding and utiliaing one's own Daemon by first educating oneself, second by renouncing the ego, and living above one's basal self. This is why the image of a man riding on a donkey was so prevalent in ancient symbolism--the stubborn donkey represented the basal, stubborn man. A man riding above it, commanding it, was a man who had "risen above" it.

Of course, when the major Patriarchal religions seized power, the idea of Humans being able to "perfect" themselves and enlighten themselves was unacceptable to those hungry for ultimate power, so the "Daemon" became "Demon", and was said to "possess" a person--if that person dared think themselves equal to, or capable of achieving a god-like status in intelligence or proficiency of trade or occupation. Hereafter, Humankind was to be subjugated; "blessed" were the ignorant in this new world--doesn't that make you sick? Can you imagine what Humanity has lost in the thousands of years which the Church has held sway? Remember that the ancients knew so much more that we are just really starting to discover now--and it was all brought to a screeching halt by the Dark Ages, courtesy of the Church! It just makes me want to scream!

This is why I reject the idea of "god" as you propose it--because I know that the origin of what you have related has already previously existed, and that heretofore it was the possession and province of Humankind! IT WAS OUR HERITAGE AND RIGHT! And it was stolen and corrupted by Religion!

Have a Merry Solstice anyway! "

" movedsouth wrote on Dec 24, 2008 5:36 PM:
" Solstice is NOT the true meaning of Christmas. "

You are right. Christmas is a contrived "holiday" based on a "pagan" Holiday. "

" Happy Holidays, and Merry Christmas (if this is important to you) all. hahaha

Re-define Christmas. It may be too late for most of you this year, but think about it for next year. "

" Karl, in the event that you, or someone you love, is in a life-threatening situation, will you pray to a higher being (God) for intervention? Or will you just say "oh well, that's life"? I'm not ashamed to tell you and everyone else here that I do pray to the Lord, God, Jesus Christ and thank Him for everything He has given me and my family. "

" Merry Christmas from Benson, AZ! "

" Merry Christmas to all and lets keep Christ in Christmas.God Bless "

" Karl -- to continue the discussion: I don't take issue with the issues you take with religion -- I feel the same way about a lot of them.

But there is a difference between the EFFECT of believing in God and the effect of believing, say, the earth is flat. Believing the earth is flat has little to no effect on the quality of life, whereas belief in God can indeed affect the quality of life, and has done so, both for good and for ill.

As I am sure you know, there have been times in the Christian past (and perhaps in other religions as well) when people believed in "grace" -- either you had it or you didn't. They did indeed believe that if a person were not successful it was because that person did not have God's grace, and the person was damned no matter what he did, no matter how good he was or how hard he tried. That whole determinism gig was a terrible thing, and one sincerely hopes it is wiped out in modern times.

The idea is that as long as people act on their belief, then they have an effect. That effect is real, and their belief made it so. It is entirely immaterial if there is any objective Being in existence outside the Effect -- because the Effect IS God in this scenario -- in other words, God is the good in us -- or better, the good in us is God when we act upon it. Prayer becomes more like a mantra to ourselves to focus on doing good.

I'm not saying this is my belief system, per se, but that it is an interesting point, as you can sometimes see such a thing manifest during the holidays when many people make an extra effort to do good for others.

The "always forgives" thing also bothers me a great deal, as there are actions so horrible that it would be wrong to forgive them. (There are horrible people who learn to use forgiveness as leverage to further harm their victims repeatedly). In theory, the person is supposed to fully repent in his or her heart, but the damage is already done.

I think the one that bothers me most is the Catholic confession thing -- how does the Priest know the person truly IS repentant before he gives absolution? If a person fools a priest in confession into giving absolution, would Catholics maintain that the person was forgiven, or would their God know the person's heart and withhold the forgiveness, particularly since the person has added deception of a priest on top of his/her other wrongdoings.

A friend of the evil man who left me with PTSD told a friend of mine that this man had gone to confession, so everything was going to be OK. EXCUSE ME?!!????!!! I don't think so. First of all, because it will never again be "all OK" for me so why should it be for him? If he had a shred of decency, he would suffer horrific guilt the rest of his life and handsomely deserve it.

Secondly, I know this man very, very well, and how he has the ability to temporarily convince himself he feels this way or that so as to be better at deceiving others and convincing them of his (false) sincerity. I have seen how he has gone on to do even more evil to other women since me, and hear reports of how he laughs about the pain and suffering he causes -- there is no way he ever truly repented in his heart. Yet some priest gave him absolution.

If there were a God who actually did forgive this monster, then I sure as Hades would not want anything to do with any such God -- no thank you!

As for cm's observation -- for me it is not a matter of not being able to believe in something I can't see, but more a matter of not having faith. To me, you either have faith or you don't, and if you don't, there is no point in faking it -- that's just hypocritical. I have no faith. It does not bother me to have no faith. I am happy for people who do have faith when they use their faith to do good and not to denigrate those who choose not to follow that path, and particularly I am glad for them when their faith gives them comfort in hard times. But it's not for me. (And I was raised by atheist parents as well).

One further point though -- I would not be so sure we live in such enlightened times that the "average" person does not need some external stimulus to behave. Even with external stimuli from religion to law, we still have a lot of evil in the world. "

" Solstice is NOT the true meaning of Christmas. "

" MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!! "

" None of this happy holidays stuff.

Merry Christmas!! "

" Anyway--the Earth will be "rounding the corner" and coming back around it's ellipse to approach the Sun again and bring the warming rays, the longer days, and the bunnies to do-what-they-do-like-rabbits in the Spring!

YAY TO BUNNIES!!!

So enjoy the "birth" of the Light--where it will grow and strengthen like a young god throughout the year, beating back the Darkness of Winter, and reviving the soil of the Earth to bring forth New Life and the new life-giving harvest!

This is the TRUE, ancient meaning of what we call "Christmas". This is the "Solstice".

Enjoy it, and give thanks for the hope of the future!
Happy Holidays! "

" Farmer's Gal (and brew, to an extent)--

I completely understand what you both are saying about "if enough people believe, then god is real". But the rational part of me says "Bullship!". No matter how you want to spin that, it still doesn't make it real. A lot of people pre-Galileo believed that the Sun revolved around the Earth. Or they believed that "Bad air" caused the Black Plague. Or that the angry gods caused Hurricanes and Thunderstorms. That still didn't make it so!

Now, don't get me wrong--I can still think in the abstract and see what you're saying, FG, about people "making god real"--I have ALWAYS said that "We created god in OUR own image" not the other way around. But that's also what makes it so insidious, so demeaning, so utterly dehumanizing and destructive to the Human spirit. For when people are so willing to attribute the magnificent, the outstanding, the magnanimity of the Human condition to an OUTSIDE source, then they rob the individual of their Pride, of their full Potential, and worse, they tell everyone within earshot or who reads their words that the only way that a truly remarkable individual excelled or succeeded in such a luminous fashion was because of "god".

What does this then say to the person who just doesn't ever succeed, no matter how hard they try? Has "god" abandoned them? Are they not "blessed"? Sooner or later, somehow, some individuals start feeling that they are "not worthy" because their prayers weren't "answered"--and then that can tip a person over the edge into self-destructive, angry behaviors. Think of a child who craves the attentions of an absentee parent--what do they start doing? Acting out in destructive ways, to get attention, or simply because they've become nihilistic. Since the god/man relationship is really framed in a parent/child psychological relationship, it's easy to see how this happens for many, many people! Also, it disturbs me how you're told that god "always forgives"--"as long as you're sincere". What utter crap! Sounds like a convenient "get out of jail free" card to me. Again, what incentive is that for a person to behave morally, or correctly?! Just say a couple "penance" prayers, or don't eat for a few days, and you slate is wiped clean? My gosh--I would NEVER raise my kids with these warped ideas!

Now maybe enlightened, intelligent people won't go that route--but let's face it--what's the "average IQ" of people in a crowd?

The ONLY reason that people believe in gods is because their parents--and THEIR parents before that, and THEIR parents before THEM, (etc, etc, etc!) told them from the time that they were children that "there is a god"!

DId you ever think about that? For YEARS I believed that if I went swimming after I ate, that I would get a cramp and drown! BECAUSE I HAD BEEN TOLD SO AS A CHILD! Children hear, grasp, assimilate, and file away whatever adults tell them--and especially when that information is insidiously coupled with a mind-controlling "fear of god", that poisonous belief takes root DEEEEP in the psyche!

Atheists children raised by their parents without belief show no such problems with this folly.

AT some point in Humanity's existence, perhaps we NEEDED the idea of a god watching over us--but that time is long past. Science should be the only guiding principle as far as understanding the world. The rest of Human decisions should be made with the fullness of Human Empathy and Caring. If we could only get past that BS religious contention that without "god", Humanity would resort to "immorality" or "animal behavior" (the biggest canard I ALWAYS hear when arguing with religious folk) we would finally be free to know the true heights of Humanity's radiant potential-and without attributing our innate Beauty and Majesty to "god"! "

" Here is a holiday quote by Max Ehrmann that I am fond of and thought was appropriate for the topic being discussed:

"Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should. Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be...And whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life, keep peace in your soul. With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy."

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to my fellow posters and u behind the scenes Citizen folks also !! "

" David, I sincerely do NOT see Obama's faux pas here as a "religious" intention by him at all. I don't see it as him "sharing" any views or not. I don't see this Rick Warren thing as any sort of "Faith" issue, whether ostentatious or discreet.

I see it as Obama's possible Achilles's heel-his commitment and resolute desire to be "inclusive", and "even-handed"--whilst expecting or anticipating that the players he's dealing with will have a sense of Honor or fair play about his willingness to have them on the field and in the debate.

I think that the Religious Right will whine loudly and use this stated commitment against him, and handicap his effectiveness as a leader. These people have had their cake handed to them on a silver platter for the last 8 years, and Obama should humor them, but make it very clear that the party's over.

Besides, Obama does NOT share Warren's homophobia and hate. He has been a rock-solid advocate for Gay people. And I think that that's great. "

" FG: very 'interesting theory'
I will still believe in God, but it does makes sense to those that dont or simply cannot understand in believing in something they have never seen! "

" Happy Christmas EVE day!
wishing everyone a safe and happy day/eve!

so far my day has started with news-we have our granddaughter today and overnight until 2pm tomorrow-The first time-shes 3! 'thank-you' to her mom!
I have to head to work for a split-shift day-we close at 6pm.

then we meet all the kids at the "Christmas House" a home nearby-that is amazing!!
the owners serve popcorn and you can walk and enjoy their whole decorated property!
Santa will also be there giving out stuffed animals to the kids!
If you are ever in/near Tampa at Christmas time this is a must see!

Enjoy your day, if you know someone alone, take a moment & knock on their door!
God Bless! "

" Karl, it's like Santa Claus. As long as enough people believe, he is real. Why else do all these sentimental movies get produced and watched every holiday season? If he is in enough peoples mind he is a real being of our subconcious. Now that I have compared god to Santa Claus I may take a bit of static for that statement. I know when times are tough I talk to someone, even if it is my inner soul but it suits me. I hate when someone preaches to me as to my relationship with god. That is strictly my business and no one elses. I got so fed up with people talking about taking Christ out of Christmas that I sent out cards that say Happy Holidays and posted them with EID stamps. "

" Karl - have you ever read Feuerbach? It's not a facetious question, and you know I am a person of no faith as well. But Feuerbach had this interesting idea that belief in God by humans made God a reality, if you follow. The idea is that "God" is the manifestation of beliefs of people who act on their faith. So, whenever a person chooses to do good deeds to others because s/he believes in God, that IS the manifestation of God, who needs not exist outside human belief to have an impact in the world.

It could explain how any supposedly good God could allow so many evil things to happen, if God really is made up of the beliefs and intentions of humans.

It is kind of the way I feel about prayer. I see prayer as a form of focus. If a person really wants to accomplish something, say an athletic or a career goal, the successful ones are going to be those who have intense focus of will to accomplish their goals. It's the first thing you think about when you get up in the morning and the last thing you think about before bed, and you turn it over and over in your mind all day long. You are constantly looking for some tiny opening or opportunity to get you further along towards your goal. Prayer can be a form of focus. There need not be any sentient entity "listening" at any mythical other end, but rather, your own focus makes things more possible, and in groups it can be even more powerful.

Do you see what I'm getting at? The formalized aspects of religion (such as prayer) can have an impact -- often even a positive impact -- through the belief and will of those who believe, and it matters not a whit whether there is some sentient being or not, for good or ill.

I've always found it an interesting theory, and I hope no one is offended. I am a non-believer who tries to be respectful and accepting, yet also tries to understand things as I see them, in which picture there is no omnipotent Other. "

" My God Karl, welcome to politics. Were you THAT naive about Obama, and what he has led everyone to believe with his comments, or silence? I am not saying that I think he's going to be a bad president, but are you serious Karl? I am chuckling at how you think Obama doesn't think like the great minister behind closed doors. Do you think that it is possible that Obama despises the average African American family behind closed doors too? Bush is no walk in the park, but like I have said before, just wait until he moves into the white house, and everyone gets a true taste of Obama. You're in for a real suprise....he is an AVERAGE politician. Happy holidays everyone--keep safe. Even you Karl--I don't know if you celebrate anything, but have a happy new year. "

" You too, Angmom, and travel safely if you are going to be traveling everyone.

I had some unsafe traveling today -- coming up 13 in Ithaca in heavy traffic, the right lens of my glasses suddenly popped out. I'm trying to drive standard, watch traffic as best I can with one eye, and feel around with one hand for the lens. I couldn't find it. I didn't dare try to get off near Boynton Middle School because that intersection/turn is tough even when you have two good eyes, and school isn't in the middle of letting out. So, I made it up to Triphammer squinting one eye shut so I could see with the eye that had focus, stuck in traffic so heavy I couldn't change lanes if I wanted to, holding on the hill while traffic was on and off gridlocked at the top where you turn to go towards the mall. I finally found the lens in the door pocket, but I could not get it to stick back in the frames (didn't help that I was rushing at brief stoplight stops to try). I did finally get it sort of wedged in place and drove the rest of the way home afraid to turn my head for fear of it flying out and not being able to find it.

Even here at home I can't get it in all the way -- I am afraid to force it for fear of breaking the frames -- so it'll have to wait until I can get out to Empire Vision after Christmas to have them properly repaired. So, Angmom, I am feeling extra sympathy for your vision problems today! (And I may have to try to find the last unopened pair of contact lenses I have left over from my football days, 5 1/2 years ago!

I think I'll also just stay home until Farmer Guy can drive me out to have the glasses fixed.

Boy, I tend to forget I even wear glasses until something like this happens. "

" The waiting period for welfare is one of the stupidest ideas ever. You are supposed to live on absolutely NOTHING for that period (formerly 45 days) -- because if you bring in any money, you get disqualified. On the other hand, if you had enough money to live for 45 days, you wouldn't have been applying for welfare!!! If people cheat during that period, I can't say I blame them! How is a person with no money supposed to survive for 45 days with absolutely no income!?!?? 90 days is stupider still.

I can't argue about taxes on non-necessary items like cigarettes, alcohol and soda pop as ways to address a fiscal crisis, but pinching the people who are already hurting the most is just wrong. "

" Happy Holidays to all. May these next weeks involve love, joy and safe journeys to everyone.

Peace. "

" b0ner, "YOU'RE" wrong again on your spelling--wanna check that?

David, I have no problem with Obama believing in god if he chooses to; my beef is with him being so obtuse as to not do his research on this idiot Warren, and on being callow and insensitive to a large part of his "base" who believed they would find a more sensitive ear in the White House with him after the homophobic Republican one that is mercifully passing, or in being so politically misguided as to want to "embrace" the Evangelicals--something which they will SURELY try to take advantage of in the future. They should be expurgated from political life and opportunity for the way they helped royally f*rk up this country!

dd--haven't you moved from that firehouse yet? See my comment above to David.

MOrals, if you really love me, prove it;come over here and clean my house and shed OK? I promise I won't call you "queenie" either, OK?
FYI, "Queenie" refers ONLY to the rocket scientist on this site who calls himself "theking"
Please don't waste your time praying either--it doesn't work period. "

" Karl,
Pastor Rick Warren is against Gay Marriages and abortions whats wrong with that.I am not against Gays just marriage.I think you really have a problem with God.I love you and will pray for you.When ever someone puts you down you call that person Queenie why? "

" Oh, yea---Gov. Patterson--make it more difficult to receive welfare in NY by imposing a waiting period of 90 days. That will keep the rats from moving here. Also, place a lifetime usage limit per person for benefits---make them train, go to school, or gasp.......get a job. That would probably balance the budget. "

" Me thinks I hear fire engines Karl----woooooo woooooo wooooo. What are you afraid of Karl? If God doesn't exist, why are you making a big deal about Obama believing? With regard to the indians not paying sales taxes: They should be paying. I have done nothing wrong to the indians, and I should not have to suffer from higher taxes because of it. Its like letting african americans not pay taxes because they had ancestors who were slaves. I did nothing wrong to them either. What about the Irish, or Italian immigrants who were mistreated upon moving here 100 years ago? I guess the families of them should receive reparations too. "

" Excuses, excuses, Karl. Why is it Obama has an excuse for a (in your opinion)poor decision, but no one else does. Also, you blame the easy one--religion. Now, Karl, Obama must profess a belief on God if he has a minister speaking at his event. According to you, this would make him an idiot, not a good man brought down by anything. Do I smell double standards? "

" I believe, correct me if I am wrong, that Patterson just signed into law of collecting cig tax from the wholesalers - it was said it has worked in other states with a heavy Indian presence like OK. "

" Karl your wrong again "

" Tom,

The Senecas have a legitimate reservation. That's news to me. "

" An awesome editorial in the "Letters" section today about the bigoted, fanatical, right-wing whacko Pastor Rick Warren, and about Obama's first big faux pas of selecting this whack-job for the inaugural address invocation.

Just more proof of how a good man can be blinded by, and brought down a level or two by the insidious poison of Religion! "

" On grocery stores selling wine issue: Up till this am I thought it was a good idea. But a Rochester liquor store owner was fined $10k by the state for selling non liquor items - wine bags!! Guess that constitutes a diffent kind of business and he was in violation. He was humble saying he s/h known better but my take on this is if they want to take the major wine sales away from liquor store owners in NYS (remember we r in wine country here - 2nd largest producer in the union), they had better adjust the law to allow them to sell more than just spirits. I found this catch 22 absolutely ridiculous!! "

" down-sizing is NOT my kind of Christmas!
I wrapped most of the gifts last night.
it made one tiny corner near my dresser filled!

normally I cant walk thru my side of the bed as one whole wall end to end and half way up is filled!

Christmas is MY holiday!
Though its so much smaller this year I am positive it will be Great! "

" Yes-it does seem as if Gov. Patterson is trying to purge NYS, but the only thing that is going to be purged is the middle class because we are the ones hardest hit by all of his cuts and tax increases. Biden is going to be in charge of some committe to re-establish a middle class. Well, he better hurry up and head to NYS because it is quickly dwindling. and if Caroline Kennedy is such a maverick when it comes to advocating for education, then I'm all for having her replace the carpetbagger Hillary. "

" Speaking of taxes...has anyone read into this proposed new 88 tax plan the governor is trying to pass?Is he trying to get people to leave NYS? "

" The Senecas have a legitimate Reservation and have sovereignty on their land.
The Cayugas do not and are breaking the law.
Having the wholesalers pay was tried and rejected as unacceptable by the tribes. So much for compromise. "

" The Senecas are not avoiding paying taxes, they are refusing to collect your taxes. Why doesn't NYS take the same action as Massachusetts and have the wholesalers pay the tax and pass the cost to the retailer in their invoices? The only tax not collected would be sales tax. This would be a compromise and the tribe would be competitive but closer priced to the other stores prices. "