Two Cents

Thursday, December 11, 2008 7:19 AM EST

I have an idea for the Kalet Building: I think it should be remodeled and since we have more truck drivers going through the city than tourists, it would be a place for them to stop and have breakfast, dinner, lunch and get a few rooms for them to stay in.



If you can't take some criticism, then you better put your poison pen away and quit whining.

All you people out there that are losing your jobs, don't have enough money for food --- dump those cell phones and quit making people like Verizon so rich. It's become such a joke -- everybody needs a cell phone, everybody's got to be talking every second.

Part of the problem is the politicians have let the Indians get away with not paying taxes for so long, people think it's OK for everyone. It's not!

Does the chronic whiner actually "walk the walk" by contributing to help the "least of our brethren," or does he just "talk the talk?"




Two Cents will be updated online as new submissions are called or e-mailed. To contribute new Two Cents items, please call 253-5311 ext. 292 or e-mail twocents@lee.net.

The Citizens' Say

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There are 79 comment(s)

Farmer's Gal wrote on Dec 16, 2008 8:24 AM:

" Not before my first post, but before my second post on the morning of the 15th, yes, the Giants had lost by then.

I was mostly out of sorts from back pain, stupid bureaucratic snafus (one with my school taxes, not my fault, and one with my kid's financial aid) and then the dead car battery (I have a new one now). The Giants losing was icing on the cake -- it was a bad weekend all around. "

anonymous wrote on Dec 15, 2008 7:50 PM:

" FARMER'S GAL, THE COWBOYS BEATING THE SNOT OUT OF THE GIANTS PUT YOU OVER THE TOP BEFORE IT HAPPENED?

MUST BE YOU TALKED TO THE SOOTHSAYER. "

anonymous wrote on Dec 15, 2008 7:48 PM:

" KARLA, I HAVE NO NEED TO BE JEALOUS. I HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE AND WILL HAVE A PENSION WHEN I RETIRE.

SERIOUSLT THOUGH, IF YOU HAVE BEEN SUCCESSFUL ENOUGH AS A MUSICIAN TO SPEND SO MUCH TIME ON HERE, YOU DO DESERVE PROPS. EVEN IF YOUR MUSIC DOES SOUND WORSE THAN TWO CATS MAKING LOVE WHILE BEING CHASED BY A STARVING PITBULL.

THE BOOK SAYS YOU ARE LOUD, NOT GOOD. MY BEST BET FOR MAKING THE BOOK THOUGH IS TAKING THE LARGEST CRAP. "

chris van note wrote on Dec 15, 2008 4:29 PM:

" karl again... wrote on Dec 13, 2008 8:38 PM:
Blah, blah, blah...GOP bad, UAW good.

Karl, I've actually worked in management in union plants. But wait, lemme guess, you haven't but you know more about it than those of us who have had actual dealings with union reps.

I've dealt with the good and the very bad with regard to unions. I actually had a union president throw the rule book at me because I was trying to get the job done and not wait for employee "a" to bring the screws, employee "b" to bring the screwdriver and employee "c" to drive the screw in the hole. I'm all for people making a good living, but unions have outlasted their usefulness.

BTW, here is some info on the UAW and the bailout from the Al Gore (tm) interwebs:
According to campaign finance data from the Center for Responsive Politics Web site OpenSecrets.org, when broken down by how members of Congress voted, for the 2008 election cycle the UAW gave more than eight times as much in campaign cash to members that voted for the bailout than those that voted against it -- $1.14 million to proponents versus just $136,500 that voted against it.

As Sen. Jim DeMint, R-S.C., pointed out last week - much of the force behind the push for the bailout can be attributed to the UAW - for fear that Chapter 11 bankruptcy would spell the end of their influence.

"The primary driver behind this is the unions, because bankruptcy allows the auto companies to basically restructure all their contracts in a way that a bankruptcy judge says will make them sustainable," DeMint said. "And if they do that, then essentially the unions lose all their leverage. It's the unions that have brought them to the brink. So definitely, I think the reason they want a political solution and a car czar is because a car czar can protect the unions through this whole process at the expense of the taxpayer." "

Farmer's Gal wrote on Dec 15, 2008 1:10 PM:

" Thanks for the kind words, BLD and Forrest; Unknown, yes, Bills fans started off happy, then slid into the dumps. Giants were going well, with just one mental hiccup (Cleveland) -- but they learned their lesson about being cocky. But since the Burress Circus, they can't seem to get back in stride. Last week the defense was a mess, and though Eli was throwing some terrific passes, his receivers were dropping them. This week the defense was looking great at the beginning of the game, but the offense didn't stay on the field long enough to give them a break and it eventually wore them down.

And they should have stuck to Grey Ruegamer (sp?) or Guy Whimper to replace the injured McKenzie on the O-Line because the new guy wasn't much and Dallas had an awful lot of sacks (8). Overshadows New York's 4 sacks which almost put Romo out of the game again early on. Tough kid, that one, and always a cheery smile. Too bad he plays for Jerry Jone, the big j*rk.

I cheer for all three NY football teams except when they play against each other -- then I go with the Giants. Also like the Steelers. Plenty of people have zero interest in football, and I understand that too -- to each his or her own! "

bassistlearningdrums wrote on Dec 15, 2008 12:32 PM:

" I don't feel that FG should be cornered and attacked. She seems to me, as a very kind person. "

forrest wrote on Dec 15, 2008 11:37 AM:

" Framersgal, not going to beat a dead horse, a couple of people on this site are down right rude and obnoxious, but you have character, you had an opinon,right or wrong, you looked back at that opinon and you apologize to Dan. May you have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. "

localman wrote on Dec 15, 2008 10:53 AM:

" Soooo, If your just a hard working joe, breaking your back for your community and country, Maybee even risked your life overseas but never had the opurtunity for much education, Then your posting here is not welcome here?? "

Unknown... wrote on Dec 15, 2008 10:07 AM:

" FG, try looking at yesterdays games from my vantage point, as a Buffalo Bills fan. Ugh.... "

Farmer's Gal wrote on Dec 15, 2008 9:31 AM:

" No one said anyone's opinions aren't WELCOME here. We may all get at each other over various things from time to time, but I think just about everyone here is very pleased with the variety of different points of view. It would be rather a bore if everyone just wrote how much they agree with each other.

It's just that sometimes people write things so poorly that they are cryptic and you can't make out the person's meaning. Dan's was not as bad as all that, but I have seen posts here which were utterly unintelligible. As for Dan, I already apologized for my crabby mood. "

karl again... wrote on Dec 15, 2008 9:16 AM:

" Thanks, BLD!
You too, anonymous--I know that your acerbic and bitter commentary was a revelation of your jealousy--soothing tonic for my soul, verily!

BTW...YOU'RE SCREAMING AGAIN--PLEASE REMEMBER TO TAKE YOUR MEDS!!!! "

Farmer's Gal wrote on Dec 15, 2008 9:05 AM:

" On further reflection, two things:

1. Though I didn't judge Dan's MESSAGE by his grammar and punctuation, many people WILL. Consider: using poor grammar is not just an impediment to getting your point across, but it also undercuts your credibility. It's like going to a cocktail party or even a PTA meeting wearing grubby, old, grubby, ill-fitting clothes. You may be a very intelligent person with an important message you want to get across, or you may want to convince people of your point of view, but people WILL judge you on presentation, regardless if we are talking about your spelling, grammar and punctuation, or how you are dressed in public. It is not fair or right that people should judge you on such things -- but it's reality. They will.

2. That said, and I stand by every word of it, I was being unfair and do apologize. Over the weekend, I re-aggravated a disk I ruptured two years ago and have been in near-constant pain. Then I went out to my car to find the battery is dead. Finally, last night, the Giants lost, and not only that, they lost to the Cowboys. You couldn't find me in a much more grumpy and miserable mood. My nerves are frayed and my tolerance worn thin. None of which is Dan's fault, so to him, I do apologize. "

localman wrote on Dec 15, 2008 8:01 AM:

" Soooo, If your just a hard working joe, breaking your back for your community and country, Maybee even risked your life overseas but never had the opurtunity for much education, Then your posting here is not welcome here?? "

Farmer's Gal wrote on Dec 15, 2008 5:57 AM:

" If you noticed, I didn't judge his MESSAGE on the difficulty with which I made out his post. The point is that communication skills are indeed crucial, no matter how much you disliked learning them in school. If you didn't bother to learn them, it's like shooting yourself in the foot when you try to convince people of your position.

This one wasn't too bad -- but there have been plenty of posts here by others with communication skills so poor that one could NOT make out their meaning -- so, no, everyone does NOT always know what they are trying to say. "

forrest wrote on Dec 14, 2008 10:08 PM:

" Famersgal, come on, I didn't know people who posted this web site had to have a degree in english. Some people donot have excellant communication skills, but do have an opinon and would like to express it, with out be judged on the use of proper english or punctuations. Let the posters who hated english class have their say with out being judged on proper english techniques. They get to post their opinon and using good english or not, everybody knows what their saying. Have a good day! "

anonymous wrote on Dec 14, 2008 6:24 PM:

" DAN W, I UNDERSTOOD WHAT YOU WERE SAYING, SO YOUR COMMUNICATION SKILLS ARE FINE. SOME HERE THINK THAT A PERSON NEEDS PERFECT ENGLISH. FUNNY THAT THE CRITIC DOES NOT LLOK AT HE OWN POSTS. "

bassistlearningdrums wrote on Dec 14, 2008 12:12 PM:

" I saw Karl and commented about it. Well done my Brother of Metal! "

bassistlearningdrums wrote on Dec 14, 2008 12:05 PM:

" Has anyone have any comments on gift giving to needy families? I have been doing it for almost 20yrs. I think that it keeps the "Santa Claus" folklore alive for the kids. It also gives hope to kids that are in not so comfortable lifestyles. "

Farmer's Gal wrote on Dec 14, 2008 11:53 AM:

" I know someone who used to work in theater, and for many jobs, he could not get work because they were union-only. Joining the union for backstage workers takes more than filling out an application and paying the dues -- you have to have a sponsor and then be voted in by the membership. For some theater unions, there is a grueling exam. In places like NYC, where a person might actually be able to make a decent living in theater, there are thousands more people than jobs, so they set the bar super-high to get in. He worked on Broadway, off-Broadway, studio theater, regional theater and even had his own small company for a while -- but never made the union, which meant he had to work three times as hard to make 2/3 the wages, hustling up each job on his own. I suppose if he had gotten in he could have sat back and relaxed and not worried about working hard to stay employed.

Of course, if jobs were tight and a union member took a non-union job, s/he could be in big trouble with the union. Rather a double-edged sword, that.

Curious, now that he has moved to another state and is only doing the backstage work part-time, he has a sponsor and is about to stand for the vote. With more than 40 years of professional experience, he should get in.

So, I agree -- there is good and bad to the whole union shtick. "

movedsouth wrote on Dec 14, 2008 10:54 AM:

" I too have worked in union and non union places. There are good and bad points of each. The non union grocery store surveyed the union stores and kept the wages comparable, benefits are unknown as it was all part time. Full time work was union and was more secure. The problem with union is that ALL employees get same wage increases. This takes away incentive to perform at your best. It is great for under achievers. Both union and non union shops are necessary to maintain a balance. Unions can be too powerful and harm the industry. As for the big 3 bailout, they have been loosing money for some time and haven't done much to change. It seems that things got critical AFTER the banking bailout. Could it be that they saw easy money available? "

Farmer's Gal wrote on Dec 14, 2008 10:41 AM:

" P.S. I can afford MAYBE $100 for the room, better if I can keep it closer to $50 and do the labor myself. Therefore, I have to stick to the intermediate plan. The house is old -- the papers say 1870, but it's been burnt down to the ground once (before or after 1870, I don't know) and it's had major renovations at least 2-3 times, so no telling how old that part of the house is. I have some photos left in a drawer of renovations done in the 70s and 80s -- I should also look at those to see if there are any views of that room. Mostly the views are of hideous wallpaper everywhere. "

Farmer's Gal wrote on Dec 14, 2008 10:02 AM:

" "Is living in a fantasy land" - is not a sentence. God, it's hard to read with periods sprinkled in indiscriminately everywhere.

Pay benefits WERE really bad, not was real bad -- benefits is plural and really is an adverb, used to modify an adjective, so it needs the "-ly" -- ye gods.

"...working conditions was rotten." Again, "conditions" is a plural term, so you have to say "conditions WERE rotten," not "was rotten."

The points you make are good, but it's hard to get an important message across when the reader has to work so hard to eek the meaning out, or is distracted by all the glaring grammatical errors. I don't disagree with you at all, Dan, not on this one, but this is a prime example of why it IS important to be able to communicate clearly.

Maybe I should just go lay down....

(BTW, there were a lot more errors I didn't pick apart -- enough in one post to fill half a page on Two Cents)

Respectfully of your opinion, but shaking my head at the communication skills.... "

cm wrote on Dec 14, 2008 9:40 AM:

" did everyone see Karl on the front page--LAKE LIFE? "

cm wrote on Dec 14, 2008 9:37 AM:

" thanks FG: I think I will love it once I get used to the 'new do'
It took me about a month to get used to my daughters room-all cheetah-with this wild mustard color on the wall--the border of cheetah design really made the difference-then added accents!
Now I go in that room and AWE everytime!

we did the youngests room in CareBears. the walls are blue and I hand painted clouds everywhere. then bought the peel and stick CareBear decals on ebay.
it is now the playroom.

we usually GUT the rooms before redoing.
so far we have gutted 3 out of 9 rooms.
our costs have been 2-3 grand per room.
this includes rebuilding the actual frames of the room!

Nature is right about the glue from walpaper, I happen to be lucky and the previous owners did everything half-fast.
very little glue and NO insulation!
maybe you'll find luck under the layers too! "

Farmer's Gal wrote on Dec 14, 2008 8:13 AM:

" Many thanks for the detailed response, nature -- much appreciated. It tells me this will not be the job for me. By spring I will have 3 jobs and barely enough time to breathe, let alone take on a job that takes weeks and weeks. But perhaps I can find a happy medium. First I will remove an electric outlet plate to see if I can ascertain for sure it is lathe/plaster, though I strongly suspect it. Then I will seek the tool you describe to remove the rounded corners and the overlapping wallpaper (exactly as you describe). Then perhaps some sanding, spackling and caulk (I assume you mean caulk and not chalk) to smooth over imperfections, then primer, any additional touch-ups, then paint, but don't try to remove all the wallpaper.

Because it is a tiny room with just one window looking mostly out under a large evergreen, and is already quite dark, I will probably pick a lighter color for the walls. I wish I could pick a richer color, but the room is already dark. As yet, I have no pictures or prints to go on the walls. I'm not one for loud noise, esp not in a tiny room, but perhaps a glass of chardonnay to keep my throat from going dry while doing somewhat dusty work!

Thankfully it is a very small room, and a guest room besides.

Thanks again! And now that other poster can run screaming because s/he "had" to read a description of my house again, LOL! "

dan w wrote on Dec 13, 2008 11:45 PM:

" Not to change the subject of the rants. My first 2 cents in the current rants Anybody that thinks companies will take care of there employees out the the kindness of their hearts. Is living in a fantasy land. I've been working for well over 30 yrs. My first job was non union. No insurance no benefits what so ever. Worked at a union shop for 18 yrs. Pretty decent benefits vacation time made a living wage, treated with respect. That I raised 3 kids on. Then a 10 year stint at a non union place. Good pay benefits was real bad. The working conditions was rotten. The turn over is way high. You were treated like dirt. I left there a yr ago. Back in a union shop again. Good pay, benefits and get treated with respect again. See a pattern here? I will agree the UAW benefits don't fit the times. 90% pay on layoff etc. Is not right and needs to change. Being in the UAW is like working for a college, goverment, school or any other taxpayer funded position.

Anybody see this AP news story? It was on just for a bit then went away. I found it again. Its very scary

"AP - President-elect Barack Obama, relatively young and inexperienced, is facing a rapidly growing list of monumental challenges as he prepares to take the reins of a nation in turmoil." "

karl again... wrote on Dec 13, 2008 8:38 PM:

" David, I do not see it as the unions "looking for sympathy" at ALL! I see it quite clearly as holding the responsible parties responsible.
Look; don't take my adamant stand as any sort of entrenched, stubbornness. I am saying what I firmly believe, and just not having any of this :blame the unions" crap. It's been pretty clear to me that the unions have clearly recognized the dire seriousness of the situation, and have been attempting to work through to a compromise. This is why a deal was about to be signed the night before this dastardly Republican cabal endeavored to undo it.

Everyone on the "Big Business" side wants to blame the unions, because, well, the unions are the only thing keeping BB from running roughshod over the last manufacturing base of American workers out there. It wasn't the damned unions that caused this collapse of the Big Three! But somehow now they have become the inflammatory scapegoat--by the clamoring of the Right who has pushed every advantage and concession to BB these past eight years.

I mean; it fits the pattern exactly. let's call a spade a spade! These Republicans went in there and tried to broker an untenable deal exactly in the hopes that they could then turn public opinion against, and bring pressure to bear against the unions.

UAW president Gettlefinger was simply laying it out as it happened.

You yourself have admitted that the big bosses have already made concessions--exactly! But the "Honda Republicans" know that if they can break the unions of the Big Three, it will be more advantageous to the foreign car companies in THEIR STATES!

The corrupt ba$tards--I want to smack them all upside the head! "

jeanne541 wrote on Dec 13, 2008 8:13 PM:

" About the Auto bail out! I believe that the UAW pays the laid off workers so much a week while they are laid off, that the Union itself will be looking for a bail out some where down the line?? "

excnyer wrote on Dec 13, 2008 7:20 PM:

" Sorry Karl, General Electric, a Union shop, sent work to Ireland and Mexico way back in the late 60's early 70's. Just because there is union representation in a company does not mean that your job is safe and will not be shipped to another country. "

nature lover wrote on Dec 13, 2008 6:13 PM:

" Welp, Fg I do remember u asking this b4 but wanted to avoid a lenghty post but here goes. To remove it for proper prep for paint is lengthy - patience is a must on this job!! Now because you have rounded corners, the wallpaper is old and I beleive plaster/lathe. Steamers and chemicals will do NO good on old painted two layer wall paper - trust me. There is a tool u can get at Lowes or HD: a black handled tool by Hyde about 10" long with a 4" angled razor - make sure u have extras. Now there is two ways to tackle this (a 3rd way was to hire a paperer which did 2 rooms here). I have done all but 1 of our rooms via #2, the last room was by #1 method because I just c/n take it anymore - lol. #1: because its old paper, I am assuming the layers overlap about 1/8" per panel? if so you will want to take this tool and carefully remove that hump. Same with the corners get rid of that slop overlap, neaten as best as u can & apply chalk. Now because paint hides much, I then apply a coat of white primer and allow to dry for a couple days - dont panic if bubbling! U then can use a liteweight spackle compound under lites u would normally use for that room, not the glaring work lites u will have up, for indents as they show more then outties. Method #2: hopefully u can get under some of the paper w/said tool to remove it. U will have a huge mess and there will be bits all over. The worst part of old wallpaper is not the paper itself but rather the glue. When u have removed as much as u can, u will need thick rubber gloves and as hot as u can stand water with double strength Mr Clean to remove the adhesive - this can take weeks depending on your schedule. I suggest getting some of your fav cds together and blasting them! lol. Again chalk and spackle are your friend here also. Now I can b 2 much of a perfectionist for my own good & actually when all is said and done, both methods work because once the final coat is on, the curtains go back up and pics are on the wall, u wont c all those imperfections u did as when u worked every square inch of the walls. On one wall here was a signature dated 1943 done by Mary something or other aged 73 at that time - we photo'd it and added to refurb book as 4 yrs of above was harrowing but perhaps not as much as pea colered walls....one last note, the darker your paint the more it will show imperfections however I used the lazy way on the last one and painted the walls the color of the center of Skaneateles Lake - a deep jeweled blue and u cant see any imperfections...GL "

daviddelker wrote on Dec 13, 2008 5:33 PM:

" Actually, Karl, the union president stated that even if the union employees worked for free for the next two months, it would not change the path in two months, so why should we budge? Go back and watch his speach. This will take changes from everyone--In fact the big bosses offered up their salaries and bonuses while in re-organization. PS--I am not a wannabe anything--I speak my thoughts. The union is looking for sympathy--why else would they have a press conference? You're just looking for a debate.PS-there is no such thing as a debate unless more than one side can be right--in this case, my only comment was that the union is pointless, and will not budge--and that you want to blame blame blame everyone but the dems. "

scouty wrote on Dec 13, 2008 4:07 PM:

" karl, the difference between this depression and the one in the 30's
is that this time there will be no soup. "

Farmer's Gal wrote on Dec 13, 2008 3:03 PM:

" Tan/blue/gold sounds pretty -- and elegant. A rug with a combo of colors would pull it all together. That's what I have in my livingroom -- it's burgundy, sage and tan, and all the colors together in the faux-Persian-style rug. (Can't afford the real thing, but I found a nice less pricey version). "

Farmers Gal wrote on Dec 13, 2008 3:01 PM:

" Say, nature, did I ask you about this before? I may have, and then I forgot. Ugly pea green paint over 2 layers of poorly applied wallpaper, including going round at the corners instead of square. Don't know what's under -- whether it's plaster/lathe or sheetrock or what. I'd like to get all the junk off and start over fresh. I imagine it is a big job even though it is a small room, but if I paint over, then I run the risk of the paper coming off anyway, some people tell me, and even if it doesn't, I still have the sloppily done corners (some with rips in the paper, since there is a gap of air where the paper goes round and the corner goes square) and you can see the seams from 2 underlying layers of old wallpaper.

Scream pea green is hideous. I have plum bedding and window treatments on order. What's your best advice? Try to steam and remove? Paint over? Do it over the holidays when the kid is home from college and could help and I have some time off, or wait until summer when we can open the windows -- or what?

TIA! "

cm wrote on Dec 13, 2008 2:28 PM:

" Nature: funny you mention the accents, my older daughter stopped by..and went into shock over the livingroom walls primed!
I was hoping it to be Xmas surprise!

she said since the furniture is dark blue, and the carpet is tan, to find pillows and carpet runners with tan, blue and gold mixtures.
I stated that was my plan today while I was out 'n about..

I cant wait until its done! "

nature lover wrote on Dec 13, 2008 1:25 PM:

" cm - excellent color choice - my office here at home is gold and I just luv it. Next try to incorporate some reds in perhaps the curtains or a throw rug. Enjoy your day off... "

karl again... wrote on Dec 13, 2008 10:58 AM:

" Even Pat Buchanan--no Democratic shill, he--today on CNN castigated the "Honda Republicans" who were "ceding the future to the Japanese auto companies and trying to put an end to the greatest manufacturing company in American history"
He even used the term "Free market uber alles" in speaking of their twisted ideology.
The other commentator said it was "clearly a smack down at organized labor"
david, chris, cm--it's clear hat you guys just don't get it. "

karl again... wrote on Dec 13, 2008 10:46 AM:

" Well, at least SOME good news about the Depression:

Abercrombie and Fitch's profits down by 28% last quarter! YAAAAY!!! "

karl again... wrote on Dec 13, 2008 10:37 AM:

" By the way david, you are just plain wrong when you wrote;

"...The fact of the matter is that the union would not budge on wages and benefits to help out"

Where are you getting this bogus nonsense? Faux "News"?!

You should already know that by now, of course, if you've been paying attention to the very real and immediate concessions that the UAW had already made. The fact is, the Republican cabal just didn't want to acknowledge them, because it didn't suit their agenda.

Just like some of these crybaby whiner sore-losers are also bit'ching about Barack "not being clear" about having no communication with that Blagojevitch idiot. Boy, talk about not being able to move on already! "

karl again... wrote on Dec 13, 2008 10:32 AM:

" Sorry, David, but I'm not at all moved by your posts. All I hear is the voice of the same ol' partisan-who-wants-to-appear-nonpartisan spouting the same ol' Republican BS talking points. The expected spinning of incomplete figures; blah, blah, blah.

The fact is, david, that the wage figures you cite are merely 8-10% of the cost of a new car, and the union was willing to negotiate on that, even.
Last I heard on CNN, the workers HAD AGREED to a nearly 50% wage cut anyway!

This is a clear-cut case of a small group of sore-loser, ideologically fanatical Republicans wanting to break the unions as payback for supporting the Democratic party. Of course, this is because Democrats care about American workers, unlike the Republicans, who have sold out American workers left and right these last eight years. Oh and uh, let's not forget that these Republicans who were in this conspiracy ALSO have foreign car companies that they had spent millions to lure into their states! Hmmm--conflict of interest much?!

Are you REALLY asking me to trust in the judgment and action of the same scumbags who have assisted in the Great Rape of America these last 8 years? Truly, yes, you DO underestimate me, david.

Lets get something clear here--the Big Three are NOT asking for a bailout--they're asking for a BRIDGE LOAN. To be paid back.

Maybe if we had more unions, maybe we'd have more American jobs over here instead of being shipped out overseas. In fact, isn't it funny how the very LAST big manufacturing base of America also has one of the last, big significant unions?! Hmmm?!

In any case, the "smoking gun" was the note the Gettlefinger read from the staffer that clearly showed the Republicans were just playing politics as usual, putting their own insignificant, tawdry, selfish interests ahead of families, children, Americans.

You know what I hear in posts like yours and Chris's?

Envy and jealousy.

Apparently you guys don't like the fact that someone out there has a cushy job where they're being paid well, receiving benefits, having a pension--and you're not. Seems like you would rather bring them down to your level huh?? Geez--sounds an awful lot like a "socialist" mentality? "

cm wrote on Dec 13, 2008 9:16 AM:

" 44 this AM yet due to be 70.

a much needed 'day off' today!
yet with a list of chores to do..
while the 'loreal' is sitting on my head, I will be embroidering Xmas gifts, while that machine is stitching, I will be going thru the gifts I bought ALL year long getting them sorted and wrapped!
I am such a multi-tasker! lol...

PS..decided on honey gold paint-the walls are already primed and ready for the first coat.
a 'new' living room is MY present! "

cm wrote on Dec 13, 2008 9:09 AM:

" daviddelker very good points on the UAW!
karl never gets the facts on issues dividing DEMs & REPs.

Unions were needed to aid the workers about 40 yrs ago..NOT NOW.
There are several organizations to aid the average worker in todays world.

those that join unions are in it for the money. BUT they dont see until layoffs happen, unions CONTROL their jobs!

with so many OUT of WORK today--it would be wiser to take a bit less pay than to have NO PAY at all.
once your job is gone, it is followed by everything in your personal life GONE! "

Farmer's Gal wrote on Dec 13, 2008 6:19 AM:

" Blame the [insert any political party here] is stupid. They've all had a hand in the corruption and mess. Neither major party has clean hands. Back when the unions formed, they were NEEDED, because workers were being exploited in criminal fashion by greedy corporations. People were being beaten in the streets for trying to get decent work conditions. Today it is very different and the unions are just as corrupt as the businesses from whom they used to be protecting the workers. Workers still need protections or we'll be no different than any third world country -- but things have gotten out of hand the other way in our current situation. "

Farmer's Gal wrote on Dec 13, 2008 6:16 AM:

" OH! Wait -- annual "compensation" -- includes all benefits, like insurance and money going into the retirement plan, etc. OK, that's a figure I can believe after all. I was thinking salary alone. "

Farmer's Gal wrote on Dec 13, 2008 6:15 AM:

" I'd like to know where college professors are making that much. Certainly not any of the institutions I've worked.

Librarians, who are often required to have 2 masters (one in library science and one is some other field, which is exactly what I have) have an average starting salary of around $40,000; I'd have to look it up to be sure, but I think the overall average is somewhere between $55,000-$60,000 at a guess. Faculty will typically make a bit more, but not THAT much more. I find that hard to believe.

But the auto workers in this country absolutely make way too high wages. More of that money should be going into making a better product. In Detroit, where the economy is depressed, people could surely live quite comfortably on $65,000-$75,000 with a family.

And as several people have said, it would be better to take a 50% reduction in their overinflated wages than to take a 100% reduction in the form of a loss of the job -- because there aren't going to be other jobs to go to if they lose the ones they've got.

If it is indeed the refusal to cut wages that made the bailout fail -- good. Make them go back and try again. That's one area that absolutely needs some trimming. "

daviddelker wrote on Dec 12, 2008 11:25 PM:

" Oh yea---hey Karl, I read your comment to Chris Van Note with regard to the unions protecting the interests of the "average American worker." Since when is someoe earning in excess of $130,000.00 "average"? Jeez, I am re thinking my opinion of you--I thought you have had some good points in the past, but this whole "blame the republicans" thing you have going on is a little ridiculous. We don't need to blame--we need to make an effort to fix this the a fair manner. "

daviddelker wrote on Dec 12, 2008 11:18 PM:

" Hey Karl----are you going to thank presidet Bush for stepping in the save the auto industry? PS--read any run of the mill story from any economist and they will all say the same thing--the only thing stopping the bill from passing is the unions refusal to agree to a cut in wages. Please do me a favor, and look up the average hourly wage of a UAW worker. Uh, don't bother, I did:According to Forbes:

Labor cost per hour, wages and benefits for hourly workers, 2006.

Ford: $70.51 ($141,020 per year)

GM: $73.26 ($146,520 per year)

Chrysler: $75.86 ($151,720 per year)

Toyota, Honda, Nissan (in U.S.): $48.00 ($96,000 per year)

According to AAUP and IES, the average annual compensation for a college professor in 2006 was $92,973 (average salary nationally of $73,207 + 27% benefits).
This is from 2006 Karl--2006. I'm sorry, but the only way for the union to learn its lesson in flexability is to lose ALOT of jobs. This has nothing to do with the republicans other than they aren't giving in to the hostage takers (AKA UAW). "

daviddelker wrote on Dec 12, 2008 11:06 PM:

" Karl again--You are one of the large group of people that bought into the sob story of the union president. It is no secret that the dems support unions, and the republicans do not. Of course he is going to pin all of the problems on the republicans. The fact of the matter is that the union would not budge on wages and benefits to help out. If the automakers are to make it financially, change is need from top to bottom---that includes bringing all salaries in line from execs to union members. So, Karl, quit letting them baffle you with BS. Maybe you don't agree that EVERYONE involved needs to make a sacrifice--that is the only reason you could possibly disagree with my post. "

karl again... wrote on Dec 12, 2008 10:25 PM:

" HEY CHRIS!
HOW ABOUT THAT BOOMING ECONOMY YOU WERE CROWING ABOUT?! Are you enjoying the coming Depression? Thanks to your precious Big-Business Republicans and Conservative "Union Busters"!

YYUP! You know what you're talking about, right!
(guffaw, chuckle, snort, spittle)

Chris, truly, I do not know what you've been smoking of late--if this whole episode shows ANYTHING, it shows how absolutely VITAL the unions are to protecting the interests and welfare of the average American worker out there.

Your residual bitterness and crybaby whining is seriously getting old!

WAAAAAAAAAA!!!!! "

excnyer wrote on Dec 12, 2008 8:42 PM:

" I think that the big 3 should file bankruptcy and reorganize. "

bassistlearningdrums wrote on Dec 12, 2008 8:30 PM:

" Just want to let you all know that SoCal is expecting SNOW next week!!! I am sure you are all laughing, but that is ok with me!!! I kind of miss the white powder! "

nature lover wrote on Dec 12, 2008 7:15 PM:

" TY oldtimer...I assume u r retired therefore collecting your pension. Which is just. I wont be retiring for years and there is no pension anymore but rather a company matched 401k now. A whole different idea on rewarding loyal workers for many years of service. What I mean about eliminating pensions is for new workers. The Empire plan is another example of retirees taking up almost half of what is available. As we live longer retirees are becoming the majority of what companies are paying in fringe benes. I read UAW cost the big 3 $70 per hr and out of that comes $31 for the retiree portion - about 44%. I just find that beyond comprehension. "

Farmer's Gal wrote on Dec 12, 2008 7:07 PM:

" Pensions done are pensions counted on by thousands of retired persons who couldn't get by without them. It would be wrong to take them away at this point. If you want to make a deal where there are no pensions going forward, fine -- but a done deal is a done deal and precarious lives are resting on the trust of promises made. Yanking that is wrong.

Earlier I said Detroit's whole economy is dependent on the auto industry. That was a typo -- I meant MICHIGAN'S whole economy is dependent on the auto industry. Yes, it is a hole of their own making, but it is a culture into which millions of people were born, a state of affairs established long before it was their responsibility. Michigan isn't some tiny state -- pull down the economy of that state and we will ALL feel it.

Yes, the auto industry dug their own hole -- BUT they will pull us all down with them if the government doesn't take some action. It is absolutely essential that whatever action is taken comes with hefty strings attached -- they can't be allowed to go on as they irresponsibly were. But they also can't be allowed to sink, as richly as the industry deserves it -- too many others will suffer.

So, I hope they can put together some kind of financial assistance plan, with plenty of strings like required reforms, salary caps, development of more environmentally responsible vehicles, etc. And soon. "

oldtimer wrote on Dec 12, 2008 5:46 PM:

" NL,
I agree with your post,100 percent
expect for last sentence.I would be
in bad shape if I was to depend on
my 401 over my penison's from unions!!! "

movedsouth wrote on Dec 12, 2008 3:07 PM:

" The fault lies with the manufacturers and the union. If the GOP played a large part in stopping the bailout, give them credit. The union blames the GOP because they don't want to give anything up. They may end up giving their jobs. As for bailing them out, go big or stay home. Either give them what they need or give them nothing. To give them less than they need will only prolong the problem and cost more SHORTLY. "

nature lover wrote on Dec 12, 2008 2:19 PM:

" In this time we live in with companys only caring for the bottom line and annual multimillion dollar bonuses for their CEO's, I feel the idea of unions should be brought back to lite. Not in the stranglehold way the UAW works but rather the original thought of protecting workers. To make businesses accountable to the worker by not closing their doors or by not doing business the oldfashioned way meaning innovation goes by the wayside. I know this idea will probably never work again as even union leaders now get multimillion dollar payouts - seems like everyone but the middle class has their hand out. What a layed off UAW worker gets compared to the rest of us is complete greed. The auto industry as a whole is responsible for the mess they are in. From the ceo down to the assembly worker, they were all along for the ride. Then cry wolf when they cant make payroll next month. The american workers in foreign car plants in this country make half what the big 3 make to include way less in fringe benes and their ceo's have caps on year end payouts. In addition, the whole idea of pensions have GOT to go in this country, that is why NYS is in a mess cuz of retirees. All should have 401's NO PENSIONS!! IMO "

chris van note wrote on Dec 12, 2008 1:35 PM:

" The unions have LONG outlived their usefulness in this country. Now their mission is only to save their own sorry butts. The UAW president in his press conference this morning wasn't too pleased when a reporter had the audacity to ask about wage cuts? $79 an hour to $49 an hour is unacceptable apparently. Nobody sane would agree to take a 38% pay cut but its a heck of a lot better than a 100% pay cut.

When does it stop? I'd like to get bailed out of my mortgage, maybe the Obamessiah can send me a check?

We all know Karl is a fan of socialism, he wants the government to be his mommy and daddy and to take care of all his needs...housing, medical care, etc.
I prefer to do that myself, its called personal responsibility. "

Farmer's Gal wrote on Dec 12, 2008 1:21 PM:

" I wouldn't trust the UAW either, even though that statement would have my grandpa rolling in his grave. He was an early union organizer, back in the days when it was a lot of fisticuffs in the streets. He stayed active his entire life, from when he joined in the 30s to when he passed away in the mid-1970s, and the head of the UAW was at his funeral along with a lot of other important people -- I didn't realize how important they were at the time, being as I was only about 10 or 11. "

karl again... wrote on Dec 12, 2008 12:25 PM:

" daviddelker--the UAW's speech today kinda clarified things didn't it?
It's not the Union's fault--it's the damned Republicans playing politics with people's lives and the future of this country.
I'm simply beside myself with consternation and outrage. "

Farmer's Gal wrote on Dec 12, 2008 9:14 AM:

" I absolutely agree that part of the bail-out should require reogranization, streamlining, improving the quality without increasing the price, containing salaries, and requiring verifiable progress towards more sustainable vehicles. The money should not be handed out like more candy to be squandered, as it pretty much was with the banks. "

movedsouth wrote on Dec 12, 2008 8:29 AM:

" The auto industry needs help, but it should start from within. Top management salaries and bonuses, union wages and benefits should be adjusted. Years ago, we didn't have the strong presence of Honda, Toyota, VW, Lexus, Mercedes Benz, etc. With the demise of Oldsmobile, GM made a start. Does GM really need Chevy, Pontiac, Buick, and Cadillac? The union does not want to cut back on wages and benefits, do they not realize that if the company goes under that the union is worthless? It would be better to cut back and keep jobs. If the government does eventually give the auto industry money, it should be no less than what they need. To give them less, would only prolong their problems. I would rather see them reorganize first. "

Farmer's Gal wrote on Dec 12, 2008 7:50 AM:

" Having lived through the previous severe economic blow to the auto industry (I graduated high school just outside Detroit in 1982), I can tell you, it's a lot more than spoiled, overpaid auto workers who suffer. The entire economy of Detroit is still utterly dependent on the auto industry.

My mom has no connection to the auto industry aside from living outside Detroit, and it's already hitting her on her tiny fixed income. About 1/4 of the houses in the neighborhood where I grew up are empty and not selling, which is an invitation to drugs, crime and other trouble. My 94-year grandmother lives on her deceased husband's pension. She has health problems and is very frail. Twice in the past 10 years there has been some computer error that made it appear she was deceased in the system, and it took months for her to convince them she is still alive and needs to have her pension reinstated.

Those are just two little cases. Lots of non-auto-workers will suffer too if they can't get an agreement. No argument that the workers are overpaid, and the management even more so. But they need to come to some kind of agreement for the sake of so very many people who are affected. "

cm wrote on Dec 12, 2008 7:34 AM:

" I have a cell phone-for about 4 yrs now..it began for work.
I mostly use it for emergencies though.

what drives me crazy is my kids and their texting-they will text me a 'book' and want a 'book long' reply-NOT happening!
If I cant text with less than 4 words which takes me about 2 minutes to do--I will just dial their number.

yesterday daughter (21) texted
get dad xmas blah blah...I reply NO
but dad blah blah..I reply NO
how about blah blah--I dial her number!
after 20 min. chat I inform her I am going back to work.

at 830pm shes texts:
going to dr.need family history..I reply OK
she follows with a huge list--I reply NO
she texts NO isnt answering her..I reply @work.
at 915 when store closed I dial her number!

woke to the cell text that arrived at 5:45 AM today!
its her again...'u want me to order blah blah'
I HID the phone under the pillow!!!
lol.... "

cm wrote on Dec 12, 2008 7:05 AM:

" FG/Nature: about 5 months after my neck surgery I had a purple pinky finger-which led to a sub-clavian blockage and a stent put in.

now my toe--I thought it had to do with the sciatica.
with my mom dying at 43 of heart attack (2nd) and 2 sisters having 2 heart attacks before 40, I do freak abit about it.
all blood work came back normal, yes with fasting.

I am having the toes X-rayed today 90.00.
BUT even if it is possibly broke--doesnt explain the extremly low to no pulse in my legs.

"doing my homework' if they dont find something in the Aterial doppler test, they will proceed with other doppler tests.
to save money we have a few places that will do 6 doppler tests for 200.00
that is the route I am taking.

right, this is the last thing I need right now, but since I live day to day at moment, this is todays woe to deal with! "

cm wrote on Dec 12, 2008 6:36 AM:

" Obama called again on Blagojevich to resign:

what happened to innocent until proven guilty?
did we all miss the trial and the jury's decision?
wasnt there news reports about Obama talking with this guy to aid in the choice? "

brew1234 wrote on Dec 12, 2008 12:37 AM:

" If I buy cigs in New Hampshire and return to Massachusetts I am required to pay the taxes when I file my income tax. If I tried to sell these cigs I would go to jail and lose the cigs and still have to pay the taxes. In MA or Canada the seller is not required to collect the taxes as they have sovereignity. The US or MA cannot force NH or Canada to collect their taxes. "

daviddelker wrote on Dec 11, 2008 10:49 PM:

" Just read about the failed talks to bail out the automakers.
The unions have struck again. They are refusing to bend on wages for their members to bring them in line with competetive Japanese manufacturer's American workers. I guess it's ok to gamble with their members--Don't you think it would be wise for the union to ask their membership if they'd sacrifice a little wage to guarantee the long term jobs? GREED---everyone wants to blame the big wigs in the big three, when it has really been the unions that have ruined it for everyone. I will feel terrible if all of those factory workers earning in excess of $100,000.00 per year driving a few screws into a bumper lose their jobs when the big three start the mass layoffs--or worse yet--go chapter 11. NOT "

nature lover wrote on Dec 11, 2008 7:46 PM:

" FG, dont feel bad as I refuse to get a cell phone as cant stand to talk on the phone anyway - yak yak yak. would rather em actually or IM. I have two landlines - business supplied, the spouse has a work issued cell phone & is allowed to use that whenever/wherever so when we travel its handy, I will admit that. I just dont get the whole cell phone deal. Em, im, snail mail or leave a landline message for a vino get together face to face. People always have the excuse I'm too busy or if they do come out forgot how to be social. this country needs a wake up call - pun intended. I have seen teenagers walking side by side down the street talking to one another on their cellphones. WTH?!? "

excnyer wrote on Dec 11, 2008 6:15 PM:

" We have a cell phone because we are full-time rv-ers and need one. However, we have the most basic cell phone plan we can get; we don't have text messaging and the phone is just that, not a camera. Our computer is broadband through Verizon (I think it's called a wireless card with a thingy attached to a cord and has a cell phone number). We have 400 anytime minutes, free calls to Verizon cells, and free weekends and nights. Our computer time is unlimited. "

the bone wrote on Dec 11, 2008 5:26 PM:

" Farmer's Gal I give you credit. I need my cell phone for my business. "

Farmer's Gal wrote on Dec 11, 2008 4:23 PM:

" Still happily on a land-line with about $35 a month bill. For long distance, I use USADatanet. I received a typical bill from them today -- $1.47 for the month.

Still resisting the cell phone thing.... "

the bone wrote on Dec 11, 2008 2:17 PM:

" To the person who wrote: All you people out there that are losing your jobs, don't have enough money for food --- dump those cell phones and quit making people like Verizon so rich. It's become such a joke -- everybody needs a cell phone, everybody's got to be talking every second.1st people gave up thier land lines for cell phone.2nd there is a $150-200 cancelation fee. "

nature lover wrote on Dec 11, 2008 11:48 AM:

" Goodness!! who has it out for the posters on this two cents with the two comments above re: poison pen, whiners, whining...
I think I can guess as yesterday he took a shot at humor albeit in poor taste regarding gays. aka HNR.

Now the Kalet comment..more trucks than tourists? R u mad? I take it u nvr go to the Seward House, MCR, the museums, the wineries...stick in the mud!

FYI this Sunday is the annual holiday open houses for above places! If u dont frequent them regularly, its a nice time to do so - very festive!

BLD: u know I looked at Craigs list once and c/n make hide nor hair of it. I am Ebay all the way as much easier to list and buy...

cm purple toe!! oh my dx 250.0..when was a fasting blood sugar done? be careful u r too young... "

movedsouth wrote on Dec 11, 2008 9:28 AM:

" Are they Indians or Native Americans? Must be if they want something, they're Indians. "

vic wrote on Dec 11, 2008 8:56 AM:

" If indeed the Indians are a sovereign nation, then taxes should be collected on the cigarettes. When you drive back from Canada (a sovereign nation), if you have a substancial amount of cigarettes, you have to pay a tax on the cigarettes. It should be no different with the Indians. "

bassistlearningdrums wrote on Dec 11, 2008 8:28 AM:

" I saw it on Craig's List. It needs to be refurbished. "

Farmer's Gal wrote on Dec 11, 2008 8:25 AM:

" cm -- are they checking for diabetes? Or MS, though I never heard of that making a digit purple, it will cause you to lose some feeling in your extremities. That just doesn't sound good. Hope they have a simple answer for you and it's nothing dire. The last thing you need is a serious health problem yourself. "

movedsouth wrote on Dec 11, 2008 8:12 AM:

" I checked E-Bay and did not find Obama's Senate seat. "

daviddelker wrote on Dec 11, 2008 7:26 AM:

" I don't necessarily agree with dd either. I agree that you are judged by the company you keep. If the governor is caught trying to sell Obama's seat, what else has he tried to do over his career in addition to all of the recent findings. How much did Obama know over the past few years? Why does Obama deny ever speaking with his governor about the seat when he clearly admitted to the same in several news stories? I am not condemning Obama, but why is he lying about it. If he's done nothing wrong.........I also happen to have been on the receiving end of a group of African Americans fist pumping, and telling me that payback is a b*tch when Obama takes his place in office. Obama is no different than any other wealthy politician. I would love to see him do a good job. I can only benefit. Anyhow---did anyone happen to read the automaker bailout verbiage? What makes anyone think its right to tuck in an average of $5,000.00 raise for federal judges into the bill? That is what was done----totally unfair to the American people. "

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