" I was thinking along the lines of equal OPPORTUNITY -- if individuals don't make something of their opportunities, then that's their look-out. So, for example, some school districts are really terrible -- have no money for programs, more students dropping out, etc. That's a place to put a few tax dollars as seed money. It's NOT appropriate to just hand it to individuals. "

" Women don't get extra points on the civil service test. To the best of my knowledge, women don't get an edge in hiring in any jobs. "

" Anything fun happening in Auburn? I didnt see a thing in the paper.

I took the kids to a sewing lesson at the local craft store--they made a pillow case and loved it! I loved the 3 hrs of quiet! lol...

getting the 2 packed up for their flight home tomorrow-neither have ever flown--I hope they dont throw up!

I am not looking forward to 'traffic city' which I have to pass to get to the international airport-on a weekend this could be an hour backup!

the last time I was there, I locked the keys in the car with it still running! Plus it was my in-laws car and they were on vacation in NY..You have no idea how long it takes AAA when its someone else car, and they are out of state!!
I told them to just call the police, it would be faster!
I honestly didnt steal the car, and calling 20 numbers was because they were hard to track down--this was well before cell phones became 'the fad'
lol... "

" people are human and no one will ever feel total equal.
some have jealousy over family members, you hear it in every family--this one is his/her FAV, mom FAVS this one over me,etc.

the government already plays FAVs, with corporations, with each other,with other countries, then giving VETs, blacks, women extra points on the civil service test because they are the minorities. No possible way will ALL feel equal.

Not all agree with the small few, that "I'd rather work hard and know in my gut I earned it" most feel its easier to take the short road and have it given to you--basically NO PRIDE!

I was a spoiled brat--haha--my grandparents gave me anything. when gramp died, gram now was in another state, so less spoiling, except for visits. So I learned to work and get nice things my parents couldnt afford for me.
Lay-a-way was my best friend!
I would be so proud the day I paid off something and it was mine.
I remember doing a dance on my new waterbed which took me 10 months to pay for! It was only 189.00 but it was a hard 189.00 to earn being single and having a kid..

Unequally, 2 of my sisters (dads favs) cried and was handed anything, even when they stole or went to jail, or bought drugs, when dad died their lives took a worse turn, they have NO PRIDE, its all gimme gimme to this day.

They always, within 2 seconds, will BLAME someone else for their mistakes.
I have never gone to a store with them--they steal worse than gypsies. AND they honestly feel its Social Services fault for not giving them enough money!
Yet they always have money for beer and drugs!

When normal people like me know of people like them--its very hard to listen to 'Equal' when its come from my taxes to support their lives! "

" I think what Reagan wrote was not that offensive. Some true, some not. "

" Well, I don't know how interested folks here would be in the nitty-gritty details of the future of managing e-books and all the really wacky pricing models the various vendors have, or in more deeply integrated interfaces to all a libraries' resources as well as the backroom functions for your library system -- the part the public never sees. I was really focussed in on my conference and was mostly just back and forth between the two hotels, with brief stops in the free wi-fi lobby to see what was going on back home.

dd -- I think you are catching on, in a most earnest and honest way. You wrote: "am puzzled as to why the federal government has not enacted a policy to do everything they can to help the US population." It's because our government's goals have nothing to do with helping the citizens of the United States. It's all about protecting the interests of the big corporations who call the shots, and it's been going on like that for generations -- it's just been more transparent lately because it's reached a point where even if you know what's going on, there isn't much you can do about it. You won't get anyone on the ballot as a serious contender for President (or Congress or the Senate -- any high position) who isn't already controlled by corporate and other special interests -- who don't have our interests -- yours and mine as average citizens of this country -- at heart at all.

I think most everything you wrote in that post is correct -- you just need to draw the obvious conclusion, as it is right there before you as the next step in your chain of reasoning.

I'm not especially cynical -- just pointing out the obvious. "

" Now this is the way to shop! Clothing store opens bar in middle of sales floor

Posted: Aug. 1, 2008

CLEVELAND — A Cleveland clothing store wants to make sure its customers are comfortable, so it has opened a bar in the middle of its sales floor. M. Lang Executive Attire owner Mike Lang said he hopes the cash bar will not only help put shoppers in a relaxed mood to buy clothing but also will encourage people to hang out at the shop with their friends.

Lang said when he approached the Ohio Department of Liquor Control, he was told they'd never had anyone request a liquor license for a clothing store. For now, he and his only sales person do double duty, as the bartenders.

After 20 years of catering to men, the store also added women's apparel recently, along with the bar. "

" "By the Way", Chris Van Note - here is something I borrowed from elsewhere. Please note the attribution. hahahahaha


Liberal vision has helped build the country. C.E. Owen, an 80-year-old from Canton, Ga., recently wrote in the Atlanta Constitution, "All of us should thank God every day for the stout-hearted liberals of the 1930s and 1940s. The liberals brought electric lights and indoor plumbing to our farm homes." They also brought the Civil Rights Act and Social Security, women's right to vote, bank-deposit insurance, and the Peace Corps. The list goes on and on.


"By the way" - I did not write this. You can see the rest at:

http://www.yosemitedems.net/Liberal.html "

" Welcome back FG. I gather you'll tell us more about your trip? "

" Mike Reagan (Ronald Reagan was his dada in case you didn't know) is a disgrace. I'm with you Karl. What is wrong with the Citizen? Does the Citizen have no shame? It sure appears that way. "

" Back home, safe and sound. Can't seem to find a post I am sure I wrote about the de facto monopoly-like situation with oil companies, but I see AJ added a bit, so maybe it's lost in there somewhere and I'm just not seeing it. "

" Oh, and PS for all of you that are worried about formalehyde seeping from the cemetery to the lake--look down! Chances are, the carpet you feet are so comfortably resting on was treated with formaldehyde. Better go pick your slobbering baby up. I have never seen proof that any cemetery has contaminated any ground water at any time. "

" Alot of people have alot of ideas on why the price of oil is high, and how we can reduce the price. I am puzzled as to why the federal government has not enacted a policy to do everything they can to help the US population. The high fuel prices, not driven on any type of shortage, but on speculation can be fixed quite easily. Our politicians if not driven by greed themselves, are worried about the speculators investing elsewhere if they are made to play with anything other than monopoly money. I say let them trade in London, or Japan. I say that if we cripple the speculators here in the US, we automatically lower the price of crude. Fuel prices effect the cost of living from home heating, to the price of produce. Lower the price of fuel, you lower the retail price of almost everything we use everyday. People say that drilling domestically won't have an effect for 10 years. What do you think the speculators are betting on? Certainly not the price of oil in the next month or two--they are betting on the future. If they understood that in 5-7 years, there will be even more oil/fuel produced here, the value will go down. I am not saying that we don't need to decrease our appetite for fossil fuels, I am saying that we need to do more than kick the speculators, and oil companies in the shin--we need to stop showing up to a gun fight with a knife. Enough rhetoric, and more action. Reducing our use of oil, developing alternative solutions, domestic drilling, and calling speculators to task are four ideas that will work together, or each alone. "

" Aster today's utterly ridiculous, disgracefully shameful and misleading propaganda piece by Mike Reagan, I am calling on the Citizen editors to purge the Citizen of his blatant, deliberately misleading propaganda.
Seriously, it's to the point where he might as well be writing columns blaming Britney Spears or Puff Daddy for the price of oil and the loss of manufacturing jobs. That's the new level of "Low" that he's sunk to with this latest garbage.
Seriously, editors--what the hell purpose is being served by printing his utter crap, other than to find something to fill that space?
I would even welcome the (HORRORS!) "Thank you" letters again--or was that the Post?
In any case--Reagan's columns are so deliberately revisionist and full of falsehoods that they deserve publication only in tabloid publications like The Sun.
"BIZARRE BATBOY TO BLAME FOR THE HIGH PRICE OF OIL!!"
Seriously, Citizen Editors. Please wipe this sh** from our pages? "

" I am NOT surprised by the headline:
Obama shifts position on offshore oil drilling
on AOL news this AM:
http://news.aol.com/article/obama-shifts-position-on-offshore-oil/
101993?cid=12

HOWEVER: WHY ARE WE RE-ELECTING AND PAYING THESE PEOPLE??
"In Congress, both parties have fought bitterly over energy policy for weeks, with Republicans pressing for more domestic oil drilling and Democrats railing about oil company profits.

Despite hundreds of hours of House and Senate floor debate, lawmakers will leave Washington for their five-week summer hiatus this week with an empty tank."

HUNDREDS OF HOURS of wasted time and money!
The 535 giving us their best at work???? "

" Happy August 1st!!!

I got a new Splash cymbal "

" Mergers do have alot to do with pricing.
If we only have ONE electric company, ONE phone company, there is no competitive market--so we are forced to pay what ONE charges no matter the cost! "

" One of the things that made the US economy so strong in the past has been free market competition along with anti-trust laws. That all went out the window beginning with the Reagan administration. Mergers and acquisitions and the failure of the government to enforce anti-trust laws have essentially given the oil companies a license to manipulate the market. If it weren't such a necessity it wouldn't be a problem, but it is. "

" Yikes DD: I am glad I am not flying today! lol...

I have to make a trip to the airport Sunday to place niece and nephew on a plane back to NY. Their almost-a- month visit at Auntie's is ending.

Yet, of course they have to be on a straight flight(under 12) and those flights are only out of the airport that is 1 + 1/2 hours away..

I dont think I will stretch this tank of gas to 3weeks! "

" My feeling on the "free market right" of a manufacturer/producer of a product to be allowed to manipulate or curtail supplies or "limit production to maximize profitability" as dd put it is this: yes, but within reasonable measures.
What's "unreasonable"?
When the price is manipulated to the point of causing undue economic hardship on the majority of the population to the point of affecting the livelihoods of the majority.
What if they manipulated the prices up to the point of $10.00, 20.00, 30.00 a gallon gas? Life would stop for people on the low end of the economic spectrum. The economy would crash, as it almost is doing now.
Allowing a tiny cabal of already obscenely-Rich to get even MORE ridiculously and recklessly financially engorged at the expense of the good of the Nation is neither good economics, responsible leadership, good for the long term health of the Nation, nor, if I might say so, moral.
Just look at the jobs lost in the Airline, Auto, and other industries because of the price of Oil and fuel?
Ridiculous! "

" In a nutshell--when it comes to oil--they have us by our wallets!

the winning Pres. will be able to do nothing, he can pass a law, it can get vetoed. Or if Law wins, oil companies fight back, how long will the courts take to prosecute?

No drilling or other energy ideals will be useful to us a whole for atleast 7 years, maybe longer.
Having more energy (oil) will just be sold to other countries..

A non-stop pattern draining every citizen. "

" And how do the profits from vary from the past 2 years with Exxon? "

" Can't we all just get along? This is just a fun forum. Hey Karl, I met Chris too--doesn't that jerry curl thing he has going on really take you back? Anyway--back to the oil profiteers. Anyone should be able to profit from the goods they produce. They should also be able to limit production to maximize profitablility. Look at what Harley Davidson did in the mid 90's. They maximized their shareholders pocketbooks too! The line needs to be drawn as to how the supply and demand affects the economy. Take for instance, water. Water is usually plentiful. Most can drink it from their own tap. In the event of contaminated water, most would have to boil the water, or purchase it at their local store. If the local store owners knew they had a valuable comodity, it would certainly benefit them to raise the price to maximize their profitability while the comodity is rare. Now, there is no shortage because anyone can boil their own, or go to the next town over and buy it, but the local police have banned travel, and NYSEG hasn't turned your electric back on so that you can boil on your electric stove. Now, equate this whole story to oil. There is no shortage. The oil companies (store owners) are jacking the price up while our options are limited. The federal government (police dept) is preventing us from going out to find our own. The government would be cracking down on price fixing if it were water. Why are they not cracking down on comodity brokers and speculators who are raising the price through the roof? THERE IS NO SHORTAGE. THE ONLY THINGS DRIVING THE PRICES ARE OUR FAILURE TO DEVELOPE NON FOSSIL FUEL ALTERNATIVES, DRILLING HERE TO FLOOD THE MARKET, SPECULATORS. Tell me how Barak or McCain are going to cure anything. alright, gotta go--fingers cramping. Plus, no one is controlling the air traffic whilst I am here complaining. "

" CVN: I also wonder about all these "profits"
I cant really whine for a company manking a profit, for if they didnt they would close down, add more to job loss in areas.
If I owned my own company, I too would hope to profit..

from reading alot on energy issues, what are their expenses?

The cost of oil rigs had tripled to purchase, same with the cost of haulers(ships), and everything higher $$$ dealing with OIL/drilling.

Constant lawyer fees for fighting the EPA/citizens while trying to get refineries, or other energy ideas put into use.

Then leases for water rights, or land ownership, nearly every town had boosted their impact fees..

yes, this is all a part of the up/downs of owning a company..
FACT: One quarter with increased profits, doesn't mean 100+% profit for the whole year. "

" 1st--- I am not queenie
2nd---I really didnt say anything wrong
3rd--I will not comment on Karl or anything else.This forum is not for me.Ilook at the bright side not the bad side "

" Hey, hey, relax everyone--nobody's going to take this "to the next level".
We all blow off steam on this forum, and I've met Chris Van Note in person, and we shook hands and I joked about "Oh great; now that I've met you I have to be nice!"
I don't think some people realize that the persona's on this and other blogs are one-dimensional caricatures. When I'm attacking Chris, or cm, or Queenie, I'm attacking what they and their opinions represent to me--NOT the real person! I don't take any of it seriously, and I've received phone calls from people whom you would never believe me if I told you, and had respectful, give-n-take conversations with them.
Please don't over-estimate either the importance or the "reality" of this forum in "real life", people! "

" Here we go again Karl--I hear the sirens of the pretend fire dept. "

" the last few posts explains why nothing can or ever will get solved ---in this lifetime anyways! "

" The BONE-HEAD wrote on Aug 1, 2008 6:13 AM:
" Hey Karl,
Never said I hated anybody or thing,dont twist the words.I love all as Christ tells to do!!!! "

Yeah, you're just a real Christ-like dude, aren't you?

Tell me, are you and queenie one and the same? The style is unmistakable, as was the threat. "

" yyYYEAH, B0ner--I can seee the love of Christ just shining through your posts!
Praise be to God!
LOL! "

" What do you jerks mean by I want to meet you face to face? Are you going to punch Karl in the face? I think your game of intimidation needs to end. Are you so impotent that you have to resort to violence when you can't force someone to accept your opinion? You should be banned from this forum. "

" hmmmm wrote on Jul 31, 2008 4:02 PM:

" Exxon-Mobil profits for the quarter
11 BILLION DOLLARS
Now whats wrong with this picture "

Nothing is wrong with that picture hmmm & AJ....

According to CNN, Exxon Mobil once again reported the largest quarterly profit in U.S. history Thursday, posting net income of $11.68 billion on revenue of $138 billion in the second quarter.
That profit works out to $1,485.55 a second.

Buried in the story we also find that "In addition to making hefty profits, Exxon also had a hefty tax bill. Worldwide, the company paid $10.5 billion in income taxes in the second quarter, $9.5 billion in sales taxes, and over $12 billion in what it called 'other taxes.'"


MP: In other words, Exxon Mobil paid $32.361 billion in taxes in the second quarter, which works out to $4,114 in taxes per second. Another way to look at it - Exxon paid almost $3 in taxes ($32.361 billion) for every $1 in profits ($11.68 billion)

http://www.istockanalyst.com/article/viewarticle+articleid_2459357&title=Exxon_Posts_Record.html "

" Hey Karl,
Never said I hated anybody or thing,dont twist the words.I love all as Christ tells to do!!!! "

" EXCLUSIVE: To Provoke War, Cheney Considered Proposal To Dress Up Navy Seals As Iranians And Shoot At Them!!!!

My My My. Sound familiar? Why am I NOT surprised? Includes video and transcript with Sy Hersh.

http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/31/cheney-proposal-for-iran-war/ "

" You're right FG, fascism would not be the correct term. Rampant Capitalism is a much better fit. "

" the bone wrote on Jul 31, 2008 7:40 PM:
" Karl I really believe that you are mentally sick on all the statements you make.You really believe everything you say.I would love to meet you face to face. "

Well now, if this doesn't sound JUST like queenie, I'll eat my shorts. Did queenie get banned? "

" B0ner--mentally sick?!
LOL! Why--because I can expound on issues and subjects that leave you in the dust intellectually?
If you can't compete, don't be a hater!
Right now, you're just a master baiter, B0ner!
Bone.
Livin' alone.
Nobody Home.
Free to roam.
Wait by the phone.
No thanks on the date, but I'm flattered that you are interested. I just don't lean that way.
B0ner. "

" Has anyone been watching the pathetic series of attack ads that McCain has been running and approving?
The Republicans are like clueless little sniveling brats trying to catch a big fish, casting wildly about in a cesspool of disreputable sludge, trying to find something that the public fish will bite.
And they get smellier and smellier with every old shoe they pull out.
It's really pathetic.
John McCain--willing to go lower than Karl Rove.
(Oooh--THAT'S LOW!!) "

" Gas was 3.85 here today, probably cheaper at Sams club-but it wasn't on my route.
However I might venture that way tomorrow, they serve a great 4-berry sundae!

can you believe tomorrow is August the 1st allready? "

" Fascism? Sounds like rampant Capitalism to me. "

" Karl I really believe that you are mentally sick on all the statements you make.You really believe everything you say.I would love to meet you face to face. "

" What's wrong with a a company making a 10% profit margin? "

" hmmmm wrote on Jul 31, 2008 4:02 PM:
" Exxon-Mobil profits for the quarter
11 BILLION DOLLARS
Now whats wrong with this picture "

FASCISM. "

" CVN, you wouldn't still be nipping on the embalming fluid now would you?

That might explain a lot! lol... "

" Thank you, hmmmmm -- you are right on the money, literally. "

" chris van note wrote on Jul 31, 2008 10:28 AM:
" All but the last paragraph is mine, I forgot to post the link so here it is:

http://www.heritage.org/Research/PoliticalPhilosophy/hl926.cfm

I see you didn't ask Karl where he pilfered his story from.

AJ, how are those chemtrails treating you? "

"By the way" - Chris, you weren't really trying to take credit for that piece of well crafted and intelligent sounding conservative nonnsense if I hadn't called you on it, now were you?

Pathetic.

As for the chemtrails - what would YOU call them then? "

" CNN just reported that in Texas alone, after John McCain flip-flopped on the Offshore Drilling issue and supported it, over 1.7 million dollars came pouring in from Big Oil donors.
John McCain--candidate for sale. "

" Think for a minute about the name "National Socialists" - which people tend to forget when they talk of "Nazis." That means they were "Nationalists" (traditional, conservative) AND "Socialists" (closer to communism, more "liberal").

National Socialists were very diverse and hybrid in ways people today do not see. There were Jewish supporters of National Socialism, especially in the early years, particularly Zionists whose agenda to move as many Jews to the "Promised Land" as possible meshed nicely with the NS's desires to move them out of Germany. There were members from the whole spectrum of what we would call "Left" to "Right" -- like most things in the Real World, it was all greys, not black and white.

My undergraduate thesis was on "volkisch" literature, which was used later by the National Socialists to draw in people to whom that social movement appealed; then my masters thesis was on Hanns Heinz Ewers, a very bizarre man who was (among other things) author of "sensation novels" as well as author of the most popular (fictionalized) biography of Horst Wessel, the Nazi martyr-folk-hero. Ewers was an early Nazi party member who was also a philosemite -- an especial lover of Jews. He married twice -- both times to Jewish women. And the novel on which I focused was about a man who is a vampire and doesn't know it, as he blacks out during these times and is sustained by his half-Jewish mistress who is secretly feeding him her blood -- because, the author asserts, Germany needs Jewish blood to achieve victory in the war (WWI) -- sounds rather strange coming from a NS Party member, doesn't it? Goebbels hated him, but was never able to get Ewers kicked out of the party.

Fascinating life -- but I use the illustration here to show that all kinds of people were NS supporters for all kinds of very different reasons.

The world is not simple black and white, nor does it fit neatly into those Left/Right, Liberal/Conservative pigeonholes. "

" Exxon-Mobil profits for the quarter
11 BILLION DOLLARS
Now whats wrong with this picture "

" Sent you an email Auburncuse61.
Enjoy your evening, I'm heading out to our local county fair for some redneck fun at the demolition derby. "

" By the way, Chris; a most interesting website you have directed us to and from which you have c-n-p'd your surrogate opinion.
A few samples of content from there"
ABout Obama : "...he is, at best, only an accidental American."
"He also benefits from deliberate efforts, in the academic world, to convince gullible White Americans, that they are somehow responsible for many, if not most, of the problems of the rest of humanity."
"The Senator's implied premise, like Karl Marx & Adolph Hitler's in Europe earlier, is always a subordination of the individual & family to the collective."
About America: "...losing its sense of identity."--(Leo Strauss would have been proud!)
"...Thus, we are being denied social defense mechanisms that ordinarily flow from a sense of identity & heritage"--TOTALLY Straussian!!
And finally--"Is there anything in the historic culture of any third world people, which even reflects concern for some of the abstract concepts addressed in Magna Carta or our own Declaration of Independence; that even suggests that such concepts were ever important to such peoples?"---?!?!
Chris...come on now....shame on you, really, for getting your information from these kind of propaganda outlets! They appear to me to be NO different than the type of sites you accuse AJ of frequenting? "

" Chris, I find it very, VERY noteworthy to point out that you feel the need to cut-n-paste your responses rather than to articulate your understanding of the issues at hand--that is, if you indeed understand at all what we are talking about.
I promise you that the posts I have made are not cut-n-pastes--go ahead; I challenge you to find the documents on the net?
In any case, your surrogate brain brings up interesting points, but you betray your misunderstanding of the subject at hand. I believe, Chris, that you are reflexively lashing out at what you see as an attack against CONSERVATISM IN GENERAL, when what I'm trying to point out is your misguided attempt to carry water for a NEO-conservative infection.
Let's take your points:
1"...big Government has sought more and more to dictate whom a business hires; the terms of that employment; the conditions of employment.."--Monica Goodling just has revealed how suitable applicants for government positions had been vetted (and denied employment)on the basis' of their sexual orientation, religion, ethnicity, political loyalties, etc--certainly NOT a "Liberal" practice in terms of affirmative action, as you would like to paint it. You post infers a nefarious, conspiratorial element to what you perceive as a bad "Liberal" practice, when in fact, events have proven that the NeoConservatives have employed this practice "liberally" (if you'll excuse the term!) while Affirmative Action was intended to redress the exact type of practice which the NeoCons would, and DID, employ!
2."The Communists made no bones about the international character of their movement; their non-concern for State borders. But the Nazis and "Liberals" at least gave lip service to older values. Yet one of the first major actions, which Hitler took, was to abolish the rights of the constituent German States--States with proud histories and very different cultures--to any meaningful control over their own societies."---Ok, Chris--WHO has fought so hard for the "open market world economy"? Whose policies have sought to import hordes of cheap foreign illegal laborers and sell out the middle class? Under whose administrations has the American Middle Class seen its manufacturing power bleed away and under who's power for the last 8 disastrous years has NOTHING been done to redress or correct these injustices?
The NeoCons, of course.
3."Nazis and "Liberals" have both tried to disarm their subject populations"--give me a break, Chris--you're regurgitating NRA propagandist garbage. Liberals don't want to "disarm" the American public. We simply want meaningful, sensible gun laws that don't leave assault-style, multi-clip, semi-automatic rifles and huge-calibre weapons on the streets and in the hands of potential mass killers and maniacs. 'Nuff said.
4."Nazis and "Liberals" have both tried to use public schools to subvert parental authority; to undermine family values"--if anything, this one is among the easiest to disprove. Who sought to have Creationism taught in school as "Science" even though it is nearly universally thought of as religious indoctrination? Who has pushed demonstrably harmful, untruthful programs such as Abstinence Only in schools to the tune of MILLIONS of taxpayers dollars, which has steeped our teens in ignorance of the precise thing that Conservatives blame for the downfall of the Family--teen sex? The Religious Right--supported by, and in bed with the NeoCon administration. Don't forget that Math and Science scores have fallen precipitously under this administration, while efforts to push Christian indoctrination in such places as the Colorado Air Force Academy and other schools have resulted in public outcries and lawsuits.
Chris, I'm not sure that I'm convinced you really understand what you're arguing.
Chris, do you understand that both the Nazi's and the Communists had at their core the same "Noble Lie" which drives both Strauss and the NeoCons?
Ironically, I will give you this--that the LIberal's "goal"(?) of "Equal Equality" is also an imperfect, and equally unattainable "Noble Lie"--but one that is infinitesimally closer to what would be considered--for me, at least--what is undoubtedly the driving force and ethos of Christianity, and certainly, the ethos of my brand of Atheism. Same sentiments, different "authors". (An Atheist not recognizing a Divine author for what we consider a universal, evident Truth of Humanism.) (How's THAT for irony?! LOL!)
"Love your neighbor as yourself"
"That which you do to the least of me, you do unto me"
And ironically as well, if you profess then to be a Christian, and to follow Christ, you can't help but be a hypocrite if you're not leaning Liberal--because the "Jesus" figure was a Liberal.
And a communist.
How's that for irony once again?
See what I mean about the "Noble Lie"?!
Fascinating! "

" Chris Van Note.......... I have been reading your post for a very long time now. Now I finally realized who you are when you mentioned growing up at a Funeral Home. We grew up together in our wilder days but have since grown up. Get a hold of me @ auburncuse61@yahoo.com "

" A little balance to Karl's rant with regard to the "Liberal" agenda, which has included the modern Welfare State, forced integration and Affirmative Action:

To be sure, the Nazis and "Liberals" (and for those familiar with the historic meaning of "Liberal" as generous or a champion of greater freedom, we place the term in quotation marks, to iterate a belief that the Modern "Liberal" most definitely is not); Nazis and "Liberals" have each allowed continued private ownership of the means of production. Yet both in America today, as in Hitler's Germany, big Government has sought more and more to dictate whom a business hires; the terms of that employment; the conditions of employment; the types of product made; the conditions for marketing the same; even the ultimate consumer, and the ultimate use.

And in every other major area of concern, the similarities are just as eerie.

The Communists made no bones about the international character of their movement; their non-concern for State borders. But the Nazis and "Liberals" at least gave lip service to older values. Yet one of the first major actions, which Hitler took, was to abolish the rights of the constituent German States--States with proud histories and very different cultures--to any meaningful control over their own societies. That was, of course, the precise issue in America, at the Federal level, for the past two generations. Under such banners as "Civil Rights," the "New Frontier," "Great Society," "War on Poverty," "Voting Rights," "Equal Rights," and "Gender Equity" (a semantic absurdity), the rights of once sovereign American States to differ meaningfully in any way, socially or culturally, have all been stripped away.

Nazis and "Liberals" have both tried to disarm their subject populations: To deny their citizens the right to keep firearms. In the case of the Nazis, the reason would seem obvious. As George Washington declared, "A free people ought to be armed. When firearms go, all goes."

But why would American "Liberals" want to take away what Thomas Jefferson well described as "the people's last resort to protect themselves against tyranny in government?" Why, indeed, if they are not what we suggest!

Nazis and "Liberals" have both tried to use public schools to subvert parental authority; to undermine family values in favor of new social norms under the radical theory that children somehow belong to the collective, and that collectivist manipulation of the social environment will somehow upgrade their potential.

Nazis and "Liberals" have both given lip service to the creativity of individuals. But each has advocated the efficacy of a collectively planned economy; the absurd concept that a bureaucracy can somehow manage the dynamic and creative energies of a productive person better than that person can manage himself. [To truly understand the foolishness of this notion, you need pause only long enough to consider the subject of motivation. There is no way a planned economy can duplicate the dynamic involvement of the productive human element in a market economy; an economy, which puts every competing man or woman, in his or her own interest, on their mettle to find that which each can do with the greatest utility.]

From this site:
http://pages.prodigy.net/krtq73aa/engineer.htm "

" cm, please do not take my post as a re;religious diatribe; it sincerely was not intended as such.
I have been struggling to understand how this country has been led so willingly to the edge of the abyss. Ironically, not unlike the Jews in WWII, we seem to have gone quietly to the edges of the pits and knelt in resignation, and only when the end is truly near have people began to stand up and try to fight back.
I say "ironically", because that "Holocaust" imagery is precisely what is the true ideological seed which has borne the NeoConservative Movement.
Leo Strauss is unquestionably the mentor of this movement, and his ideas were shaped and twisted by the Jewish experience in Germany in WWII. Strauss himself was a Jew, although he emigrated to the USA in 1937.
Strauss was born into an Orthodox Jewish family, and if you know anything about that sect, they hold themselves apart from society. They feel that they are a "Chosen People", and do not fraternize much outside of their own communities. I believe that much of this formed a basis for Strauss' philosophical leanings concerning the elitist, separate nature of what he imagined were the "select" who could be entrusted with what he called "The Truth",
It gets pretty psychologically complex to understand how Strauss' own perception of his "special status" as an Orthodox Jew squared with his horror at watching the plight of his fellow Jews over in the Third Reich, and his disillusionment at what he felt was the failure of his God to save them. He did indeed become a disillusioned atheist 9although I would argue that becoming an atheist out of anger or bitterness for unanswered prayers s not true Atheism).
However, in spite of his anger/disillusionment with God, he fully recognized that the Nazi's had indeed used a quasi-religious framework to inspire and motivate their members--the pomp and parades, the iconic imagery, the myth of the "Vaterland", the slogans (Fur Volk und Vaterland!" the "special, chosen status" of the Aryans as a people--he saw the whole framework and machina of an organized religion in the Nazi's rise to power, and in the zeal that its members exhibited. He both admired and loathed the fact.
And this is why he came to believe in the lie; the "Noble Lie", even as he DIS-believed THE LIE ITSELF. He felt that Religion and/or a quasi-religious structure for society was necessary to bond together a people in a common cause and inspire them to die for it if necessary. He felt that Liberalism's focus on all people being equal meant (correctly) that no perosn or peoples were inherently superior or greater, and that that sort of individualism and equal right of opinion and Liberty allowed "dangerous elements" *such as another Hitler) to flourish and succeed.
Ironically, cm, Strauss spent a great deal of ink comparing America to pre-Nazi Germany, and warning that another dictator like Hitler could arise in America's Liberal political atmosphere. And again, ironically, the very "antidote" that Strauss proposed--that of a small coterie of individuals (or even one individual with dictatorial power) is exactly what has been happening in America for the last 8 years, and certainly what Rove and his minions have tried to instill in the highest offices in the land.
And there is the paradox--in the cure is the disease. The cure for the disease is more poison.
Fascinating, isn't it?
In the end, I believe that NeoConservatism has proved to be an invalid and unsustainable form of government, because the "select few" have shown themselves to be too incompetent, arrogant, and too insular to allow for truly qualified people to occupy important positions of leadership in favor of sycophantic, loyal lackeys.
If you really think about it, it really DOES have a remarkable amount of similarity to the inner circles of the Third Reich.
I hope I've made it clear though that you cannot divorce the role of Religion from NeoConservatism. It is honestly the very seed of it, and I sincerely and humbly challenge anyone to try to disprove that. "

" By the way, Chris--methinks that you really rather overestimate my admiration of Obama, and underestimate my sardonic sense of humor.
I do not "worship" Obama, nor do I "worship" ANYONE. I am not a man to follow or devote myself to any demagogue, real or imagined.
And I think also that you rather overestimate the depth of my Atheism--I do not hate all religious people, nor have a problem with them exercising their indoctrinated delusion IN PRIVATE as they see fit. What Obama thinks of "Jesus" or any deity concerns me not. For me though, "JC" is part of the "Noble Lie", period. "

" Chris, you won't find "where I pilfered my story from", because I wrote it from the notes I've taken from reading Shadia P Drury's books "Leo Strauss and the American RIght" as well as "The Politics of L3o Strauss". It's my summation of the points of the two books.
I have been researching and searching, trying to understand why EVEN TRADITIONAL CONSERVATIVES see through Bush and his organization as NOT truth "Conservative"--and the real picture of the NeoCon movement should frighten all Americans, and indeed, anyone who believes in Democracy and Freedom. Really. I'm not saying this "Liberally".
The NeoCon movement as inspired by Strauss is PROFOUNDLY "Elitist"--you know how you Conservatives are always trying to push that elitist crap about Liberals?--well, look in the mirror. The NeoCons believe that only a few "select" are "qualified" to "know the Truth"--and that Truth is that the "Noble Lie" is necessary to inspire Humanity, and that it is better to propagate that lie--whether it be one of Religious nature, or Patriotic zeal against an "Ultimate Enemy", or, say...9/11?. Bottom line, Chris, is that the NeoCon movement is deeply narcissistic, egocentric, and conceited with it's own Power and presumed "suitableness" to lead. It had no place for actual Democracy, because it does not believe in the actual machina and methods of Democracy. It works against the them to have others who are not in the "Inner Circle" (read: "suitable to lead") to be elected. Why do you think there is SO much excessive nepotism and an emphasis placed on personal and party loyalties within this particular administration?
Your proferred definition of Conservatives states that Conservatives do not believe in promoting Equality--well, I would argue that this is at the very heart of the Declaration of Independence, the founding document of the United States! Read this carefully, Chris:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed..."--your definition of Conservatism is, then, by definition, anti-American.
The Straussian interpretation is even more radically more, because what it REALLY advocates is NOT a true Democracy, with free elections and the will of the masses, but autocratic rule by a small coterie of self-appointed "chosen" individuals. ANd remember, these individuals rule by the "Noble Lie", so deception, patronizing, deception, and secrecy become tools of policy.
It's seriously a fascinating and frightening topic that you should research yourself, because with all due respect to you, I don't believe that you quite understand it, or the real danger it poses to America and the world.
In any case, the Great NeoCon Experiment has basically run its course and has been pretty much universally rejected and considered an abject failure. I don't think there's any use in debating that. "

" Johnny Cash Rocks!

Lately, I have been listening to a drummer called Thomas Lang. Totally amazing. Other than that, at work I have my Grateful Dead bootlegs to listen to. "

" karl: I just read your post.
Why does everything with you revert back to religion?

Why is it if one believes they are nuts and you who doesn't are sane?
What about us in-the-middles?

yes, I was raised Catholic, but at 13, I found church issues I disagreed with.
it began when I was about to be confirmed, and had to pick my sponsor, take her name.
I choose my BF's mom, who was like a 2nd mom to me.
When Father Nacca heard of this he stated NO..my sponsor was divorced she no longer qualified in the church.
However, I explained my sponsor one day was in her kitchen, her hubby (who always beat her) walked in the front door, picking up their 6-month old child and put a gun to the baby's head, he kept going back forth from her to the baby-saying "who will die first?"

Myself and BF ran out the backdoor to my house to call police. As the sirens sounded in the distance, her elder sons snuck from behind and tackled him, we heard the gunshot! Luckily no one was injured.
He went to jail and she got a NEEDED divorce!
HOW did that no longer make her a qualified Catholic??

After many round of discussions with my mom and Father, I agreed to choose another sponsor.
HOWEVER, on confirmation day, when the bishop said "what is your confirmed name, I stood tall and said my BF's moms name!
If looks could kill, Father surely wanted me dead, all those in the church that day, "knew" the issue, gasped!

After returning home I told my mom Father/Church could not possibly be right!
The Mom, was still a good person, loving, caring, abided the law, and still believed in God---Who is Father to say she was stripped of her church, now an outcast?
Isnt that Gods decision? Doesn't God forgive? Didn't God understand why she divorced?

After that incident, I never attended St.Francis again.
3 yrs later, I attended mass with a friend and listened to Father Enright of St.Mary's. Strangely his sermon was about "who was allowed to attend church"
"EVERYONE, he said, rich, poor, divorced, ex-jailbirds, come with no shoes and ripped pants, God turns No One Away"

I have added other NON-Catholic ideals to my disagreeable list, yet I still believe in God.
I have yet to see any scientific proof that we evolved from Ape--where are the bones showing progression of Ape to Man?

I am an In-the-middle. "

" All but the last paragraph is mine, I forgot to post the link so here it is:

http://www.heritage.org/Research/PoliticalPhilosophy/hl926.cfm

I see you didn't ask Karl where he pilfered his story from.

AJ, how are those chemtrails treating you? "

" Chris - where did you copy and paste that from? "

" excnyer:
I havent a clue as to what to Gas is here this week--but I will let ya know later-my 2 wk fill-up time is today, which I stretched to 3wks on this last tank full.

if gas prices are going down, then why are the airlines now bumping 2nd bag to 50.00 per bag instead of 25.00 ??? "

" I took the zucchini issue as a nice neighbor with a garden giving them away-and this undeserving person was complaining what they got!

If this is the case, the receiver should be honest with the giver, or stay quiet and donate them to a group who feeds the homeless.

But throwing them away when one could make several loafs of zucchini bread is a total waste! "

" sorry quiver: I was never into metal.

MAMA raised a country girl.
On cleaning day, Mama blasted Conway Twitty & Loretta Lynn, and of course Johnny Cash.
Yet I always owned the top 100 in 45's that gramps bought at Grants weekly.

My BF was dating a PCR--we were, where they were....lol.

YET my FAV rock is Def Leopard-
I blast the greatest hits CD on my cleaning days--and tease the son who works sound at his dads bar--
IT's NOT LOUD ENOUGH!
(he said he'd buy me new sound system-
I am still waiting)

I could go buy a system but its not as FUN as texting him with:
"Def is whispering while I am weed-eating the farthest point of the backyard"
OR
"whispering Def has to be illegal"
lol "

" Karl writes that the left deals in truth, no matter what. Right...coming from a 9/11 conspiricy nut.

The lie that is religion, interesting. Yet you worship Obama who is a practicing Christian, so in effect since he says he believes in JC that makes him what? A liar? Stupid? Gullable?

And from someone who prays to the Obamessiah (Karl called him the "Saviour" on this board) who is just another arrogant, self-obsessed, vapid political hack whose accomplishments can be counted on a number of fingers not unadjacent to ZERO, and who will more than likely be a miserable failure if elected President (a prospect that is still very much in doubt).

By the way, modern conservatives oppose using government authority to enforce a vision of greater equality labeled by its supporters, with great seduction, as "social justice." Nearly as many conservatives object to the use of government authority--or, alternatively, to the denial of government authority where it is natural, legal, and appropriate--to promote a worldview of individualism, expressivism, and secularism. Finally, most conservatives want nothing to do with an airy internationalism, frequently suspicious of the American nation, that has shown itself so inconstant in its support for the instruments of security that are necessary in the modern world. "

" FG, hope you're having a nice trip.

Just don't be nervous on your way back. Big Brother is watching!

TSA Ramps Up Program to Psychologically Screen Airline Passengers

http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/35148 "

" CM, I was thinking more on the lines of Alvin and Rick from Dr. Wu, Jim and Ed from Alibi, and Northside Blues band. Not to mention a bunch of musician's that played open Mic at Spirits.

PCR are talented people, I just cringe at their choice of music, but it makes them money. "

" Don't worry, Q-Tip----you've already qualified! LOL! "

" Hello, my dear neighbors and thank you for your lovely zucchini, but could you please pick them a little sooner because I tend to throw them right in the trash. They are just too big and tasteless to enjoy.


If the person saying this knows anything about zucchini, why would they buy it,if it would only be wasted. Know your zucchini! "

" quiver: prison city rockers were my fav! "

" Looks like I won't read karl's posts. I don't want to be accused of being an idiot!


CM, 79? I know musician's in Auburn your age. Cool! "

" Gas update:
Sam's (Dayton, OH) $3.47 "

" Bone, you must've read my post too.
You are then, by definition, an idiot.
That's for the Bone.
Bad to the bone, yeah, like nobody else.
The hip bone's connected to the leg bone.
I got a bone to pick with you.
Give a dog a bone.
Bony Marony
Bone. "

" Chris, you bring up an interesting point about "The Dark Knight"--and one which I would love to answer for you.
Your google asks:
"Why is it then that left-wingers feel free to make their films direct and realistic, whereas Hollywood conservatives have to put on a mask in order to speak what they know to be the truth?"
Easy to answer.
This goes back to the roots of the current Neocon movement which had its genesis in the teachings of Leo Strauss.
Strauss was a German Jewish emigre' and political philosopher who taught at the University of Chicago in the 50's and 60's. Paul Wolfowitz, Irving Kristol, VP's Cheney's former chief of staff and chief national security aide Lewis "Scooter" Libby, Newt Gingrich, William F Buckley, John Ashcroft, Jeana Kirkpatrick, and Justice Clarence Thomas are but a few of his more prominent students who have gained positions of power and influence in the American Conservative party and in Washington. Many people call his followers a "cult" for their shadowy, secretive and rabid devotion to Strauss's ideas and influence.
Strauss grew up in Germany and lived through the Weimar Republic's first drafting of a constitution, and the subsequent rise of Nazism, and of course, the pograms against the Jews. Liberalism had destroyed the alliance between Church/State, and therefore had removed the link between monarchs and God. This was the "reason" in Strauss' mind why the Weimar government was too weak to resist and reign in Hitler. He thought that the state of affairs where there was no definitive authoritative power leading the State (such as the former pre-constitutional Prussian Germany)and the idea that all individuals had a voice and could jockey for power opened a door which Hitler and the Nazi's forced their way through.
More than anything though, Strauss HATED the fact that Liberalism destroyed the power of Religion. He believed that Religion was necessary to buttress the power of the State, and to control the population. It removed the absolute "Truth" of "one" religion. Liberalism taught that ALL religions, creeds, races, etc, were "equal"--and for Strauss, that was anathema. Strauss felt that "One religious Truth" was necessary to imbue people with a sense of purpose, and identity. Strauss also mated this with the distinctly Jewish belief that the Jews were a "Chosen People, and that by removing that kind of religiously-inspired SEPARATE IDENTITY, that Liberalism's valuing of all citizens led to a dilution of Religious communities, which then led to a breakdown of Society and toward nihilism. Strauss felt that Liberalism's equality of Religious beliefs had destroyed the Jewish sense of community--therefore accomplishing in theory what the Nazi's had tried to do politically. (like many Jews, Strauss felt that a community was a community by nature of who and what they EXCLUDED. This has ALWAYS historically been an important issue for Jews--the "Us vs Them" aspect of Orthodox Judaism and the dilution of what it meant to "be a Jew" through inter-marrying) Ironically, the Holocaust led Strauss to question even his own God's existence! Though he never directly expressed it, Strauss's writings convincingly betray that he was in fact an atheist, BUT THAT HE BELIEVED IN THE NEED FOR THE "NOBLE LIE"--that is, the lie of Religion, and the need to bind together a people, a nation, a cause IN THE NAME OR CONTEXT OF RELIGIOS, OR QUASI-RELIGIOUS MYTHS AND MOVEMENTS!
And significantly, Strauss believed that this "Truth--that of the "Noble Lie" was so dangerous that it could only be told to and known by a small group of invested people who were fit to rule--which explains the deceitful, deceptive and ultra-secretive nature of the Bush Administration. Neocons believe in the LIE of Religion and God, but themselves do not really BELIEVE in it. In truth, they are profoundly Elitist, which explains why they favor the Rich and Powerful.
This is also why the American Neo-Conservative movement has allied itself with the Radical Religious Right--but yet tells us why they are so hypocritical and seemingly AMORAL.
And since America was founded on Equality and Liberal ideals, the Neocons and today's Conservative Party can rightfully be said to be "anti-American"--something I have vociferously been arguing for years!
But Chris--here's an answer to your question. Why do Liberals like their movies to be direct and realistic, while Conservatives like their movies filled with grandiose concepts, themes, and myths? Because therein lies the essence of the heart of the two movements. The current Straussian-inspired movement of Neo-Conservatism BELIEVES IN USING THE MYTH OF THE "NOBLE LIE"--regardless of how unrealistic it might be ("I think we'll be greeted as liberators!") While the Left prefers Truth--no matter how much it hurts to admit, or how much it shatters the carefully-guarded illusions of Power, Religion, or Patriotic Myths. "

" stevedallas wrote on Jul 30, 2008 2:08 PM:

" Anybody who waste the time to read your post is an idiot! "
I agree he has nothing to say.I think he talks just to hear himself---THATS FOR YOU KARL "

" My hubby once said he wanted the taxidermy deal and Placed in the corner of my bedroom (to scare away potentials)

He also said I could take away inches I disliked and add inches where I liked..lol "

" Cleaning out the sleeps 8 pop-up camper, that is fully equipped with all the comforts of home! what fun!!

About 7 yrs of camping fun in that item!

I will miss it when it leaves, but also time to let go and..

someday should I/kids win the lotto, I want buy a Class C Coachman Freelander! "

" we did a garden a couple of years ago for the pets-between the 2 sheds-it to was just a weedy area. now it has mini-flags and stepping stones and lots of flowers.
My dad is buried in Ithaca where his family is-straight from Sicily. My daughter remembers him always giving her change-pennies--so when she finds one she says 'PAPA's saying Hi' and she saves them.
When we come to NY, she buries them atop his grave. Someday it will be treasure to someone, or just to our family who knows what she does on each visit!

My gram nearly went nuts over my moms cremation too! She said never ever do that to her! We didn't-she is buried next to my mom and grams hubby.

For me, my oldest son is responsible to have me arrive 15 minutes late, no matter how early I start, something occurs and I end up 15 minutes late.
I made it clear, I need not change a thing when I die, everyone is to be at the cemetery and exactly 15 minutes later the hearse should arrive with me..lol

I plan to purchase plots in Auburn, I hope to not burden my kids with financial woes in case of my death.
I have also labeled some costly jewelry--who gets what--so no fights arise and they know this was my moms or my grams. I have already showed them and asked them for aid in choices.
The older daughter wants hubby's flag, so we already purchased the case and loaded it with his medals and gave it to.
I am pretty open about death, hiding the facts of death from kids is not being a responsible parent, we all have to accept it will happen! "

" I thought CVN posts was interesting.

at one time or another, we all have to OR have already made a decision that goes against our true ideals, its called being human.

reality: there is a select few that say "I love war-give me a gun, I cant wait to kill someone"
BUT if you read history there is always something that benefitted in a positive way due to a war.

AJ: never say never, just because many think our Pres. is the worst right now,
the future is yet to be.

Someday our grandkids may be saying "and they thought GWB was bad"

as I have stated before its not just ONE PERSON! "

" Found my post -- and apologies to The Citizen for implying they might have lost it. It's just one of the last posts on the previous Two Cents page.

Another thing Farmer Guy had thought of was propping his dead body up in a chair at a good old fashioned Irish wake and everyone drinking to his memory and having fun. Of course, now that's he's an organ donor, that won't happen, but any useful parts will be put to good use. I should get around to doing the same.

Anyone see they've voted to hold Karl Rove in contempt of court -- about time! "

" Klavan is either a madman or is on drugs. Maybe both. He certainly is imagining things. "

" I'd love to be plopped into the ground with no chemicals and have a hard maple planted on top of me. "

" Different topic: remember we used to get detractors here complaining not only about the length of posts but insisting this shouldn't be a place for conversations?

I differed then and continue to do so. It really just dawned on me, but Two Cents is a social networking site for people interested in news and events in Auburn New York -- and the rest of the world, but what we have in common is some link to the Auburn area. It can be valuable to facilitate the ability of individuals to interact with information -- and each other -- in ways that make that information more useful to them - and sometimes to others.

At least, that was the message we got today from a very energetic and interesting Keynote speaker. I just hope this message doesn't get lost in the ether the way my nice one about different ways of dealing with the body after death appears to have done.

Time for lunch! "

" What Bush and Batman Have in Common
By ANDREW KLAVAN
July 25, 2008; Page A15

http://online.wsj.com/article_print/SB121694247343482821.html

A cry for help goes out from a city beleaguered by violence and fear: A beam of light flashed into the night sky, the dark symbol of a bat projected onto the surface of the racing clouds . . .

Oh, wait a minute. That's not a bat, actually. In fact, when you trace the outline with your finger, it looks kind of like . . . a "W."

There seems to me no question that the Batman film "The Dark Knight," currently breaking every box office record in history, is at some level a paean of praise to the fortitude and moral courage that has been shown by George W. Bush in this time of terror and war. Like W, Batman is vilified and despised for confronting terrorists in the only terms they understand. Like W, Batman sometimes has to push the boundaries of civil rights to deal with an emergency, certain that he will re-establish those boundaries when the emergency is past.

And like W, Batman understands that there is no moral equivalence between a free society -- in which people sometimes make the wrong choices -- and a criminal sect bent on destruction. The former must be cherished even in its moments of folly; the latter must be hounded to the gates of Hell.

"The Dark Knight," then, is a conservative movie about the war on terror. And like another such film, last year's "300," "The Dark Knight" is making a fortune depicting the values and necessities that the Bush administration cannot seem to articulate for beans.

Conversely, time after time, left-wing films about the war on terror -- films like "In The Valley of Elah," "Rendition" and "Redacted" -- which preach moral equivalence and advocate surrender, that disrespect the military and their mission, that seem unable to distinguish the difference between America and Islamo-fascism, have bombed more spectacularly than Operation Shock and Awe.

Why is it then that left-wingers feel free to make their films direct and realistic, whereas Hollywood conservatives have to put on a mask in order to speak what they know to be the truth? Why is it, indeed, that the conservative values that power our defense -- values like morality, faith, self-sacrifice and the nobility of fighting for the right -- only appear in fantasy or comic-inspired films like "300," "Lord of the Rings," "Narnia," "Spiderman 3" and now "The Dark Knight"?

The moment filmmakers take on the problem of Islamic terrorism in realistic films, suddenly those values vanish. The good guys become indistinguishable from the bad guys, and we end up denigrating the very heroes who defend us. Why should this be?

The answers to these questions seem to me to be embedded in the story of "The Dark Knight" itself: Doing what's right is hard, and speaking the truth is dangerous. Many have been abhorred for it, some killed, one crucified.

Leftists frequently complain that right-wing morality is simplistic. Morality is relative, they say; nuanced, complex. They're wrong, of course, even on their own terms.

Left and right, all Americans know that freedom is better than slavery, that love is better than hate, kindness better than cruelty, tolerance better than bigotry. We don't always know how we know these things, and yet mysteriously we know them nonetheless.

The true complexity arises when we must defend these values in a world that does not universally embrace them -- when we reach the place where we must be intolerant in order to defend tolerance, or unkind in order to defend kindness, or hateful in order to defend what we love.

When heroes arise who take those difficult duties on themselves, it is tempting for the rest of us to turn our backs on them, to vilify them in order to protect our own appearance of righteousness. We prosecute and execrate the violent soldier or the cruel interrogator in order to parade ourselves as paragons of the peaceful values they preserve. As Gary Oldman's Commissioner Gordon says of the hated and hunted Batman, "He has to run away -- because we have to chase him."

That's real moral complexity. And when our artistic community is ready to show that sometimes men must kill in order to preserve life; that sometimes they must violate their values in order to maintain those values; and that while movie stars may strut in the bright light of our adulation for pretending to be heroes, true heroes often must slink in the shadows, slump-shouldered and despised -- then and only then will we be able to pay President Bush his due and make good and true films about the war on terror.

Perhaps that's when Hollywood conservatives will be able to take off their masks and speak plainly in the light of day.

Mr. Klavan has won two Edgar Awards from the Mystery Writers of America. His new novel, "Empire of Lies" (An Otto Penzler Book, Harcourt), is about an ordinary man confronting the war on terror. "

" I grew up in a local Auburn funeral home, so I don't find dead bodies morbid at all. Pop used to say its not the dead ones you have to worry about.

I think I'm going to go to the taxidermist when I check out. "

" Gee, did The Citizen lose my whole long post about different forms of body disposal? "

" stevedallas, apparently you're an idiot then!
Thanks for the clarification! "

" Anybody who waste the time to read your post is an idiot! "

" ...and then cm replied:
"" karl: the way you speak of it is Morbid!
but I happen to love the cemetary being the first thing I see when I drive into town,
along with saying "Hi mom, hi gram, hi gramps, I'll be by to visit later after I unpack"
now I know their soul is not there for (wacky or not) my daughter has been seeing them since she was 2 here in my house!

I prefer open casket, I want to SEE them one last time. I do believe in celebrating their lives.
I attended a friends funeral a few months ago--who had a similar Holland funeral.
I loved seeing all the photos from birth to death, and special trinkets the person collected in life and the wonderful stories for family to tell us the story behind them.

I think its all in ones choosing as to how they want their funeral/burial to be.
Most elderly HATE to discuss it, but I think My generation is very open on the subject--maybe due to family rifts we have witnessed when our elders dont make wishes known--OR when they do, and a member doesn't abide by them! " "

" OK; let the debate ensue--since we got a premature "wipe" by some "Newb" at the Citizen offices apparently. (And because today's comments are so boring!) Here's what I wrote this morning:
"" cm: "I can't imagine leaving my loved one in a drawer or jar at the morgue for many months/years !"
WHY NOT?
Do you realize how much unnecessary space and land we gobble up burying chemical-laden corpses in big lacquer-coated boxes, poisoning the land, the water table, the food chain?
In fact, all this talk of cancer rates in Auburn--who was the IDIOT who put a big cemetery on a HILL near the Lake, where the decaying bodies and caskets can leach chemicals right down into our drinking water? SHEESH!
If people would just realize that burials in the old fashioned way has to STOP, we would be doing a HUGE service and benefit to ourselves.
A dead body is just a dead body. Visiting a grave is just walking around a bunch pf stones. The essence that was the person is long gone. Remember people for what they WERE, for the legacy they left. Too many people wallow in Death and sorrow; celebrate a person's LIFE! Thats the way they would have wanted it!
The most beautiful memorial service I was ever to was in Holland--me and my old girlfriend's first real date, LOL! There was no "wake" per se. NO "viewing" or displaying of the body. There was not even a closed casket; only a group of photos around and on top of a box containing the ashes and on a dais with some favorite personal items chosen by the deceased as a representation.
Everyone assembled in a small chapel, and three songs--picked beforehand by the dead grandma--were played. Her "personal" goodbye to the assemblage. Then there was a period where family members and friends could step up to a podium and eulogize the woman--anecdotes, regrets, well-wishes were all voiced. There was laughter and tears. Then the service was called over and a luncheon served at a different location.
The body had already been cremated. It was much, MUCH more tolerable and "positive" than the sad, aswful spectacles we submit ourselves to here in the States--the misery of the "viewing"; the long, mournful, oh-so-final loading-of-the-casket; the slow, dreadful drive to the cemetery; the painful entrance into the Church, the service with the casket there and the dreadfully morbid exercise of trying to receive Communion around the casket, followed by the final dreadful trip to the (HORRORS!) open grave, accompanied by a crescendo of wails and tears. You're lucky if someone DOESN'T faint or collapse out of grief. It's absolutely sadistic and M-O-R-B-I-D! What an exercise in self-torture!
The whole idea needs to be redone! " "