Two Cents

Wednesday, May 28, 2008 12:17 PM EDT

Enforcing alternate side parking on Genesee Street will be interesting. And how about those churchgoers who park anywhere and everywhere they want.



I know from experience --- don't call local government --- they won't help you out. City manager, city engineer, senators from Seneca Falls, they're all, you know, pretty much worthless.

Why is it that Social Security is going broke, but the war in Iraq and bloated congressional pensions are not?

Stop messing with our side street parking and get rid of the kiosks.

How many more deaths are needed before this stupid president of ours ends this unjust and not needed war in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Mike Stearns from the Auburn Board of Education should have said, "I'm glad that Auburnians on fixed incomes, business owners, and people with low paying jobs got out and voted on this year's school budget."




Two Cents will be updated online as new submissions are called or e-mailed. To contribute new Two Cents items, please call 253-5311 ext. 292 or e-mail twocents@lee.net.

The Citizens' Say

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There are 127 comment(s)

AJ wrote on May 30, 2008 8:19 PM:

" This looks like a pretty good assessment and I like what I've seen so far.

See the rest at fair.org

Journalists get Iraq wrong all over again as they defend pre-war reporting

Former White House press secretary Scott McClellan's forthcoming book has caused a political firestorm by offering unusually blunt criticisms of the Bush White House. But McClellan has also aimed his fire at the news media, accusing mainstream reporters of being "deferential, complicit enablers" instead of challenging the White House's case for the Iraq War. The reaction from many in the elite media demonstrates that White House is not the only institution that resents being held accountable. "

AJ wrote on May 30, 2008 7:42 PM:

" Chrissy, you're SO macho!! "

AJ wrote on May 30, 2008 4:32 PM:

" CVN, you have just proven again that your reading comprehension is very bad, which might explain why you have a tough time with politics. I currently own a 550, but am upgrading.

Gator, I could afford to go out and buy 6 Harleys tomorrow if I wanted to, but why would I just to have some freaking status symbol which is no more reliable, and probably less so, than the bike I am considering?

I also could have gone out and bought a Lexus or a Mercedes, but bought a Corolla instead. I am not that insecure that I have to get my approval from others who are "impressed" because of what I drive. You're entitle to waste your money on what you think works for you. But you shouldn't look down your nose on others who do not share your sense of mindless consumerism. "

karl wrote on May 30, 2008 4:21 PM:

" WAHOOOO! For the first time today on CNN, the words "War Crimes Trials" were used and asked about by a viewer to Scott McLellan! I got goose bumps!
BTW, Chris--I've got a mere 250cc race bike that would make you poop your diaper if you twisted the throttle. It's got that much power--a 550 a "girl's bike"?
You must be one of those idiot-types that need to buy a Hemi pickup to drive to Walmart with so you can look "cool"--sheesh; I'll bet you'd feel pretty stooooopid at the gas pumps?
For your information, the bigger motor, the less mpg's. And THAT's what's most important to me in daily transportation. "

karl wrote on May 30, 2008 4:01 PM:

" Chris, Hitler picked the most outstanding, loyal subordinates too--what are you saying?
And wait a minute--Olberman a "Psycho"?! Uh,...compared to who--Rush, Ann Coulter, O'Really? or Hannity? LOL!
YOu kidder, you! LOL! "

chris van note wrote on May 30, 2008 3:59 PM:

" Why am I not suprised that Karl and AJ would want a 550? That is pretty much a girl sized bike. "

movedsouth wrote on May 30, 2008 3:50 PM:

" karl,does BHO's church have tax exempt status? I don't know, but I'm aksing you because you know everything. "

chris van note wrote on May 30, 2008 3:37 PM:

" Karl writes that McClellen's book is "the most important political revelations of this generation?" (of course paraphrased from what the psycho Olberman had said) although he hasn't even read it. Interesting...
Also interesting is the McClellen is now being used in DNC ads.
What separates great leaders from the second tier is their ability to pick outstanding subordinates; devoted, tireless partners that implement the vision. Think of President Franklin Roosevelt's brilliant General George Marshall, or President Reagan's Secretary of State, George Shultz.
GWB picked someone who had no business being press secratary and now is paying the price. "

movedsouth wrote on May 30, 2008 3:37 PM:

" karl your atheism has turned you into a hateful person. BTW, Harleys are reliable now. They HAD a reputation years back, but now they ARE reliable. I ride Yamaha, my son rides Kawasaki, all great bikes. It is a matter of preference. 550, I think you are not up to REAL machines. "

karl wrote on May 30, 2008 3:35 PM:

" cm, go ahead honey; keep repeating it to yourself:
"Scott McLellan is a liar! Everything he says isn't true! It's not Truuuuuue!!" LOL!
If you repeat it enough times it becomes REAL, ya know! ;) LOL! "

karl wrote on May 30, 2008 3:33 PM:

" movedsouth, whatever fantasy world you're living in, I don't want to ever go there. The Separation of Church and State is very real, and several electioneering Churches HAVE lost their tax exempt status--one of them most recently right here in New York. "

karl wrote on May 30, 2008 3:31 PM:

" "The only people who hate Harley's are the ones who can't afford to have a new one"...OH Sheesh, Gator; are you for real?
For the record, I can afford a new Harley and would NEVER WASTE MY MONEY on one when a Japanese bike is twice as reliable, gets double the mpg, and is literally a third the price! Besides, a fully dressed-out Harley is barely a motorcycle at all, with all that nonsense on it--God forbid you drop that pig, you'll need a crane to pick it up! LOL!
Issue settled? Good.
Go Obama! "

cm wrote on May 30, 2008 3:22 PM:

" somewhat true GATOR! everyone I know wishes they could afford a new one!

someone I know divorced-HE got the house and furniture-SHE got the harley! "

karl wrote on May 30, 2008 3:20 PM:

" cm and MS--as a former churchgoing Catholic for more than 30 years, and as someone who has studied and analyzed Religion enough to see through and leave behind a deeply-inculcated and very real fear-of-hell-and-damnation and embrace Atheism, I can assure you with ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY that I have a FAR, FAR MORE CLARITY AND UNDERSTANDING about Religion than either of you will probably EVER have! YOu two kill, me, honestly--boy, if there were ever two pupils of the "Faux School of Repeat-It-Enough-to-Believe-It", you guys are shining examples! LOL! "

cm wrote on May 30, 2008 3:14 PM:

" McLellan has been put down by every person who has spoke to him or about him!
He IS another Princess Diana's Butlers!
If I were him I would take a polygraph on national TV.
watch his eye contact/his manner of sitting/and listening carefully to his tone of voice..LIAR
Without a lie-detector test he will go down in history as another "needing money scumbag" who writes a book! "

cm wrote on May 30, 2008 3:04 PM:

" Karl I agree that there are some "performers" Sharpton/Jackson
I disagree that Wright is a performer.
he is/has reeled in blacks on drugs/misfortunes(Obama) and sucked them into this ideal their life of poverty,non prospering is because of whites.
the sad thing is his followers believe it!
Obama is the "idol/guinea pig" pushed by the church to show "their church" can make a president!
what they ignore is "their church" can break a president too! "

Gator wrote on May 30, 2008 2:50 PM:

" The only people who hate Harley's are the ones who can't afford to have a nwe one. I travel all over the country on my dressed out Harley and I can assure you my buddies on the non-Harley's are not having nearly as much fun as I am. I will contend if you're riding a Goldwing you know what I'm talking about. I love the the guys on the little bikes telling me it's the same ride, especially those with the apehangers. I've owned just about every bike out there and I wouldn't go back for nothing. If you can afford them, ride them. "

movedsouth wrote on May 30, 2008 2:35 PM:

" karl, if there IS a wall between church and state, why don't they revoke tax exempt status for churches that get involved in politics. THERE IS REALLY NO SEPARATION ANY MORE. "

cm wrote on May 30, 2008 2:26 PM:

" I agree movedsouth--Not being in a GROUP such as church karl has no real understand of following.
He angers at cults/ or the latest mormons in texas but to truely understand what ties they have one would have to belong! "

karl wrote on May 30, 2008 2:25 PM:

" Hmmm, Chris--you "never thought much of Bob Dole", but you'll cite and quote him when he serves your prejudices and willingness to disparage the most important political revelations of this generation? Man, talk about betraying your own principles! I guess we really ARE grasping for straws now aren't we? Kinda confirms to me that McLellan really IS Onto something here, huh?
Bob Dole--oh yeah, wasn't he the guy that once said ""I figured it up the other day: If we added up the killed and wounded in Democrat wars in this century, it would be about 1.6 million Americans — enough to fill the city of Detroit"? The same guy who lost his presidential bid because he was compared to the uber-scum Newt Gingrich? The same advocate of a "Human Rights Amendment", and who proposed slashing Medicare and Social Security?!
Yeah--sounds like a true "Loyal Republican" there. His screed against McLellan is E-X-A-C-T_L-Y what I would have expected from his type! "

cm wrote on May 30, 2008 2:24 PM:

" Obama accusations HAHAHA
facts facts facts!!!!

karl there is an imaginary wall of church and state.
its more used in schools but NOT in politics.
Besides I thought it was Obama who gave the public the tour of the "man who was like a father to him, the man who guided him threw his drug days, the MAN rev.racist Wright"

I think due to your ability to speed read, you also speed listen--which makes you miss alot of words spoken or printed!
slow it down karl and see/hear the words!
Obama says......"being a black man/or being black/ or myself being black" "

movedsouth wrote on May 30, 2008 2:16 PM:

" karl, if you don't think that one's spiritual leader project into their personal life's beliefs, than you are a bigger fool than I thought! I think you have no use for religion, and cannot understand this concept. "

cm wrote on May 30, 2008 2:14 PM:

" speaking of getting old:
hubbys calls to say "its official hes old" --after working 13hrs he stops for dinner, while eating he notices his reciept, the girl gave him a senior discount!
hes not even 45 yet.

shortly after, I stopped at the store with daughter and grand-daughter, the clerk comments "well behaved daughters you have"
I said thank-you but the big one is mine and the wee one is my grandbaby!

For fathers day: "preference by loreal" "

karl wrote on May 30, 2008 1:58 PM:

" cm and movedsuoth, when are you two going to get beyond the pathetic attempts at disparaging Obama by citing his alleged pastors or "spiritual leaders"?
Haven't I been saying for a long time that the LAST person people should be asking politics about is a priest or pastor? Geez--and you guys DON'T want to recognize the Wall between Church and State, right? PFFAAAWW!
YOu people apparently confer a LOT more legitimacy to these egomaniacal preachers, while not understanding the concept of "playing to your audience". Let me tell you what I know from being a performer in the public arena myself--you play the songs that people want to hear. YOu tell the jokes that get the biggest laughs. You preach the vitriol that gets the most headshakes and "Praise the LOrd"'s! The fact that these idiotic preachers preach their bigotry and ignorance FROM BOTH SIDES (as evidenced by Hagee, Wright, RObertson, Falwell, etc--just as many if not more 'white' preachers by the way) is proof of only one thing: that Racism exists, and endemic IN MOST ULTRA-RELIGIOUS DENOMINATIONS! I have studied this; and I stand behind that statement fully. If you don't believe me, please; research it yourself. It's just another form of the xenophobia "tribal mentality" that characterizes most vibrant religious communities.
You DO NOT find such Racism in most Humanist or Atheist communities and organizations--I can attest to that from experience. And we just laugh and shake our heads sadly at all the "good Christians" and other "People of God" with their racist, bigoted demagogues and their holier-than-thou incriminations!
Do yourselves all-and the country as well--a huge favor: STOP LISTENING TO PREACHERS FOR ANYTHING OTHER THAN ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES! "

cm wrote on May 30, 2008 1:53 PM:

" I would never attend a church that had a speaker like that. Since I call it as I see it-it might be a toss up if I was thrown out before I could walk out! "

chris van note wrote on May 30, 2008 1:34 PM:

" Never been a big Bob Dole fan, but he hit the nail on the head with Scott McClellen:

Scott,

There are miserable creatures like you in every administration who don't have the guts to speak up or quit if there are disagreements with the boss or colleagues. No, your type soaks up the benefits of power, revels in the limelight for years, then quits, and spurred on by greed, cashes in with a scathing critique.

In my nearly 36 years of public service I've known of a few like you. No doubt you will "clean up" as the liberal anti-Bush press will promote your belated concerns with wild enthusiasm. When the money starts rolling in you should donate it to a worthy cause, something like, "Biting The Hand That Fed Me." Another thought is to weasel your way back into the White House if a Democrat is elected. That would provide a good set up for a second book deal in a few years.

I have no intention of reading your "exposé" because if all these awful things were happening, and perhaps some may have been, you should have spoken up publicly like a man, or quit your cushy, high profile job. That would have taken integrity and courage but then you would have had credibility and your complaints could have been aired objectively. You're a hot ticket now but don't you, deep down, feel like a total ingrate?

BOB DOLE "

karl wrote on May 30, 2008 1:32 PM:

" cm, your baseless, silly accusations of Obama being some kind of "racist" sound an awful lot like "projection" to me. Did Queenie teach you that from his Freud books he's been studying? LOL! "

karl wrote on May 30, 2008 1:30 PM:

" So Queenie, you're a fan then of Mussolini, and that other scumbag Berlusconi? Genovese? The Gotti's? LOL! It wouldn't surprise me! LOL! "

chris van note wrote on May 30, 2008 1:05 PM:

" No Karl, that came from the San Francisco Chronicle. I think all the botox has gone to her brain and the really frightening thing is she's third in line for President.
Iran has provided the munitions and much of the support in attacks against our soldiers. The surge succeeded in spite of Iran, not because of them.
Crediting an enemy that actively kills our troops with the success achieved through the sacrifices of our young men and women and the Iraqi troops is the epitome of adding insult to injury..
What are the liberals going to do when we win (and we are winning)? Where will the defeatist Democrats be? "

Farmer's Gal wrote on May 30, 2008 1:03 PM:

" That was so stupid it isn't even worth rising to the bait. Yawn. "

nature lover wrote on May 30, 2008 1:00 PM:

" They're old technology, and old people ride 'em. As of 2005, the median age of new Harley buyers was 45..

hmmm 45 is old people? thats my age, I will have to rethink how I live now...

lol "

movedsouth wrote on May 30, 2008 12:57 PM:

" cm, don't you realize that a black man can spew hate against the white? It's only the whites that talk about the blacks that are racists. These people are BHO's spiritual leaders and you have to believe that some of that spills over to him. Why would anyone ATTEND a racist church? I see Obama's pulling stronger on the youth vote, but is loosing some black votes. He promised everyone a job. "

theking wrote on May 30, 2008 12:42 PM:

" pelosi is an old bag. she has no clue. shes the only italian i can say i actually hate. does anyone actually think a woman knows anything about war and tactics. shes just another stupid dem. broad. "

karl wrote on May 30, 2008 12:26 PM:

" cm, since the 1990's, Harley Davidson has been steadily been increasing the amount of foreign-made parts in its bikes not only to stay competitive, but for the improved quality of their engineering. But they're still junk.
They're old technology, and old people ride 'em. As of 2005, the median age of new Harley buyers was 45, with only 15% under 25 years old. Pretty soon the AARP will be endorsing them.
And then you've got to deal with that "Harley culture"! UGH! Weekend warriors and phony posers who want to look cool before they have to go mow the lawn and pick up the kids, LOL!
God forbid you outfit your Harley with aftermarket parts, like custom mirrors or flashy chrome from companies like Arlen Ness--these companies peddle the most insulting pieces of tin-tinkertoys-for-boys that you could imagine. Guaranteed to break within the first 500 miles! "

AJ wrote on May 30, 2008 12:00 PM:

" Karl, thanks for the input.

Glad to hear you like Suzukis! I own a Suzuki GS 550 - one of the most reliable bikes I've ever owned. It's funny cause when I first drove a Suzuki 1000 or so back in the mid 70's during a test drive, I thought the thing was going to fall apart underneath me. In retrospect, the guy who built it for the dealer was probably smoking something, but it turned me off of Suzuki's until a friend sold me his a few years ago.

Anyhow, I've been researching the Boulevard models which seem to be very popular and highly regarded. It just so happens that I like the styling of it better than anything else (except the studded seats on the C50T). I would prefer the more classic styling from the 70's and early 80's, but they just don't make them anymore, so I'll be happy to settle for the BLVD model. BTW, its 800 CC, and most people claim that it will cruise the freeway quite comfortably, having a high gear ratio in 5th.

My only problem is is that the local dealers are telling me that they are short on this bike, and M&R never got back to me with a quote I asked for. I have searched the internet for any info regarding a shortage and can't find anything, so I don't know if this is a sales tactic or what. There does seem to be a number of places online that claim to have adequate stock at very reasonable prices, so I may go that route and drive a few hundred miles to get one. Maybe I'll call your friend Jess at M&R and give them another shot.

As for Harley's, I'm with you on that - NO WAY would I pay that much for a bucket of bolts, regardless of the resale value! People have to be CRAZY to pay that much.

CVN, without Pelosi, your stupid war would never have continued, and Bush probably would have been impeached by now. You should be kissing her feet, bozo. "

quiveringthigh wrote on May 30, 2008 11:46 AM:

" karl wrote on May 30, 2008 10:07 AM:
" AJ--DO NOT GET A "HARLEY"--THEY ARE PIECES OF JUNK!!!! I KNOW--I OWNED ONE!!!
They are made with inferior parts, and show poor quality of workmanship! The engines are inefficient, and you'll only get 40-50 mpg, which is CRAP for a motorcycle, when you can get 1/3 more than that with a Japanese bike. They're extremely heavy, wide, and quite honestly, you just don't look as cool as you will on a dual sport bike.
excnyer--you OBVIOUSLY don't ride, to recomend a Harley. They're J-U-N-K, period! AND WAAAAY OVERPRICED!!! "



Come out to Ca and tell that to the bazillion riders, and I don't mean the ones that belong to clubs. "

AJ wrote on May 30, 2008 11:42 AM:

" anonymous - I agree with you, it does get tiring and boring. But I guess it can't be helped that just can't be educated, as hard as we try. I guess it is true that you just can't fix stupid. But the handful of us on this board will still keep on trying because we may still reach others in the process so it will not be a complete waste of time. "

cm wrote on May 30, 2008 11:41 AM:

" Aj , Karl says buy Japanese over AMERICAN! feed those other countries your $$$$$$$..
be sure to talk to Wes--since
"you be karl's friend" "

cm wrote on May 30, 2008 11:37 AM:

" Speaker of the House it a wacko added with PMS! The woman hasnt a clue and if ya watch her on Tv she acts like a teeny-booping starlet on the red carpet! "

cm wrote on May 30, 2008 11:34 AM:

" Karl it totally sickens me-that Obama plays stupid to his 20+yrs at THIS church! HIS church is no better than the members of the KKK.
DO you really believe that his values that he has grown up with from this church does NOT spew into his work-life?
BS!
One would think that after the remarks by Rev Wright, the political stance of Obama, the love my church/denounce my pastor,THIS church would just lay low!

But instead they add fuel to the fire.
WHY? to get BLACKS riled/voting.
especially when its coming down to the wire!
Its also coming: if his wins the nomination, there will be riots.
If he loses the nomination there will be BIGGER riots!

If you listen closely to his speeches:
"...being a black man...."
underneath the suit & tie, theres a racist DUCK!!!!!!! "

karl wrote on May 30, 2008 11:28 AM:

" All of a sudden now, Chris knows more than the Speaker of the House.
I'm impressed, Chris--where'd ya learn that--Faux Newz?
"SEMPER FI! DO OR DIE! MORE WAR, MORE WAR!! OOHRAH, OOHRAH!!"
Sheesh....GO OBAMA! GO OBAMA!!! "

chris van note wrote on May 30, 2008 10:42 AM:

" Yet one more reason not to vote Democrat this year. This nugget comes from San Fran Nan Pelosi:
"Whatever the military success, and progress that may have been made, the surge didn't accomplish its goal. And some of the success of the surge is that the goodwill of the Iranians - they decided in Basra when the fighting would end, they negotiated that cessation of hostilities - the Iranians."
This woman is a complet dolt, much like Obama when it comes to foriegn policy.
The Iranians have done nothing less than overtly foment violence across the Middle East and she thanks them. Yet another liberal surrender monkey. "

karl wrote on May 30, 2008 10:08 AM:

" cm, who the hell cares WHAT church Obama belongs to. Churches don't write policy--unless you're talking about Republicans! "

karl wrote on May 30, 2008 10:07 AM:

" AJ--DO NOT GET A "HARLEY"--THEY ARE PIECES OF JUNK!!!! I KNOW--I OWNED ONE!!!
They are made with inferior parts, and show poor quality of workmanship! The engines are inefficient, and you'll only get 40-50 mpg, which is CRAP for a motorcycle, when you can get 1/3 more than that with a Japanese bike. They're extremely heavy, wide, and quite honestly, you just don't look as cool as you will on a dual sport bike.
excnyer--you OBVIOUSLY don't ride, to recomend a Harley. They're J-U-N-K, period! AND WAAAAY OVERPRICED!!! "

karl wrote on May 30, 2008 10:02 AM:

" brew, the problem is, "God" doesn't write or enforce the traffic laws. Nor does he drive and have to inconvenienced by the dangerous habit of parking in the lanes of traffic.
I'm EXTREMELY disappointed that the corrupt Texas Supreme Court was apparently paid off to send those poor, abused children back to their abusers! Let's get something straight--THESE KIDS ARE, AND HAVE DEFINITELY BEEN, ABUSED! It is ABSOLUTELY ENDEMIC in these polygamist communities! I suggest that anyone who thinks that I'm just "ragging on Religion" here, read "Under the Banner of Heaven" by John Krakauer", which explores the history and current practices of polygamist Mormons. These people are, WITHOUT QUESTION, a CRIMINAL organization! The commit welfare fraud on a MASSIVE scale, abuse their young girls, disenfranchise and abandon their young men (the "Lost Boys" who are sent out of the communities once they become "competition" for the old pedophile men) and are SEVERE with the remaining children! The kids are lied to about the "outside world", and brought up in climates of abuse and fear.
Did you hear that they essentially "waterboard" the baby when it's like, a few months old, to instill in it an instinctual and deep sense of control and fear of the elders? It's absolutely sickening--a former member was describing it on Larry King's show.
And did you see pictures yesterday on CNN of Warren Jeffs kissing his 12-year-old "bride" on the mouth? What a sicko!
This is an absolute outrage; a sincere travesty of Justice, but, hey...in Texas? I'm not surprised--it's one of the most, if not THE most corrupt in the country! "

cm wrote on May 30, 2008 9:31 AM:

" I have been by StMarys with the street nearly blocked --at the time I saw a person in 1 car-in drivers seat-I thought maybe they parked there waiting for mass to end to aid elderly or handicapped?

then said: note to self--go a different way when its mass time!
problem solved! "

cm wrote on May 30, 2008 9:23 AM:

" wow-lucky for me brew I havent had a bigmac in about 2 yrs. And I dislike leather furniture-cold in the winter and sticks to your bod in the summer!

reminds me of vehicle shopping last year: I tell the salesman NO LEATHER-what is the first one he shows me? erggg-
And why do people buy leather furniture when they have cats with claws? dah! "

excnyer wrote on May 30, 2008 9:11 AM:

" AJ...get a Harley and be proud of what you're riding! "

jmw53 wrote on May 30, 2008 8:49 AM:

" Thank you, Brew, you're right. That 11th commandment about parking was on the stone tablet that Mel "Moses" Brooks dropped in "History of the World, Part I". "

Farmer's Gal wrote on May 30, 2008 8:25 AM:

" You've never seen dangerous church-going parkers until you've seen the huge three story church across from where I grew up just outside Detroit. The church was so big it even had a TV show.

When I was growing up, it was an all-white Southern Baptist church; now it is an all black Baptist church. Aside from the skin color, I can't tell the difference in behavior.

First, they bribed an official somewhere and paved the parking lot, which is flood plain along a tributary of the Rouge river and was not supposed to be built upon. (My mother's house is on one side of "the creek," the church on the other). The result -- every house on my block flooded when it rained because the flood plain had been paved. They didn't care -- they had money and did what they wanted.

I went with a friend to a service once -- they had BOUNCERS! I kid you not -- no one was allowed to get up and leave during the service, and they had bouncer/guards at the doors to make sure. The room was huge, with seating on the main floor, then in horseshoe balconies all around upstairs. There were multiple pulpits with tiered layers of choirs on both sides up front, more than one minister preaching, taking turns, all in front of an enormous ceiling-to-floor drapery. Partway through the service, they pulled back the drapes to reveal a painted scene of the River Jordan with a walk-through-up-to-the-neck baptismal with a clear glass front, so you could see the people walking underwater with just their heads above -- they had attendants in robes to carry the babies through the baptismal.

I went with the same friend to one of their youth group activities -- a scavenger hunt. First we had to sit and listen to a lecture about how it was sinful to even think about holding hands with your boyfriend (since neither my friend nor I were virgins at the time, it came off as totally silly to us). And girls were never to wear pants. Bowling and playing cards were out. But then they let us all loose in vans all over the city and it was pretty close to out of control. I just sat back and watched.

And when the service was over each Sunday, the people who'd all just been "saved" came roaring out of there like they were ready to start sinning afresh with a vengeance.

There was a little old man who walked the neighborhood for exercise. One Sunday morning, one of those holy rollers tore out of church, ran him down and dragged him to his death half a block.

The churches in Auburn are deeply respectful by comparison. "

cm wrote on May 30, 2008 6:23 AM:

" http://news.aol.com/elections/story/_a/obama-distances-himself-from-another/n20080529232409990025

HOW can you ignore the facts of this RACIST church Obama is a part of?? "

brew1234 wrote on May 30, 2008 2:00 AM:

" And when you go to McDonalds the cows that made that big mac were humanely slaughtered so that makes you a good christian soldier. And that leather recliner you own had the skin ripped of a cows dead carcass humanely and you are still a good christian. You hypocrit! "

brew1234 wrote on May 30, 2008 1:55 AM:

" The eleventh commandment is thou shalt not park far from church and have to walk a long distance to worship. God will allow you to park where you wish. "

brew1234 wrote on May 30, 2008 1:53 AM:

" Let's put a new spin on the religion argument. Why did the state of Texass pull 440 kids from their families based on unreliable statements that 2 to 3 children engaged in illegal sex acts? I bet that if you took an investigation of 440 kids anywhere in the US you would find more than 2 or 3 children that should be removed from their families. If we are so concerned about freedom of religion why is this happening in Texass? You force religion down my throat but then not allow these people freedom from persecution. "

karl wrote on May 30, 2008 12:58 AM:

" AJ--actually, not really motocross, but "Hare Scrambles"--offroad "woods" racing. I just practice up at the motocross track.
Anyway, I have a Suzuki DRZ400 dual sport which I ride all over the place on the street. SUZUKI'S RULE! They are just about bulletproof, and have the easiest clutch pull and most reliable clutches of any manufacturer in my opinion.
My race bike--an RMX250--has had incredible luck with the clutch throughout some BRUTAL woods racing. I've never once cooked it or had it slip, if you maintain it well.
I would recommend you look into the DRZ400 as well--last time I put gas in, I had 67 miles on the odometer, and put in .944/gallon of gas! I can easily get 70 mpg!
I don't know much about the "Boulevards", but are you saying you want to get a 50 cc?!?! That will never pull you around! If you're riding a "crotch rocket" though, the Boulevard would be a better gas bike--but I'd still recommend the DRZ400. Go see Wes at M&R Sports, and tell him you're my friend; he can set you up for around $5400 new, payments of only $100/month! "

karl wrote on May 30, 2008 12:49 AM:

" Been off reading Freud again, Queenie? Please...spare me the quaint, predictable analyzing. Religion and religious folks are more than fair game for the ignorance, hypocrisy, and prejudices which characterize many of the most ardent of them. Just look at the posts there about Tyburn Academy and the parking issues! "

anonymous wrote on May 30, 2008 12:14 AM:

" Yawn. This site is really boring. I guess you get sick of reading the same tired old rhetoric day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day.


Sometimes, less is more. "

jmw53 wrote on May 29, 2008 10:37 PM:

" Amen to the comment above about the illegal parking by church goers. I have never understood why people are allowed to park in a traffic lane on Route 34 (North Street) for services at Holy Family Church. There used to be "No Standing" signs placed there but for some reason they no longer exist. It is remarkable that no accidents have occurred. Drivers from out of town going south on North Street are in for a big surprise because one does not know there are cars parked in their traffic lane until they pass the stop light at Seymour Street. There is also a similar circumstance at St. Mary's where people park in a traffic lane on Loop Road. At both churches I've noticed empty spots in the parking lots. In fact, St. Mary's tore down a historical building so they could have more parking and people still park illegally while spots go begging in the lot. By the way, I was a recipient of an "alternate side" parking ticket last week. I wish the illegal parkers would receive equal treatment. "

wakeuppeople wrote on May 29, 2008 9:17 PM:

" How can the folks at Tyburn Academy call themselves Christians?? Carson and Barnes Circus has violations 3 pages long of animal abuse not to mention the video of trainers beating the elephants horribly! How dare you support this violent and inhumane behavior!!! Christians.. I think not! "

movedsouth wrote on May 29, 2008 8:58 PM:

" karl, I guess your just a person that has to rag on something. A REAL HATEFUL PERSON! Do you ever find anything good in life? I think people that have to rag on something really aren't happy with who they are. "

AJ wrote on May 29, 2008 8:50 PM:

" Karl, I know your thing is motocross, but I was wondering if you had any opinion(s) on the suzuki blvds - I'm considering hanging up my gs 550 and getting a c50..

So far from everything I've read it seems to be a good bike for the dough.

If you know anything about these bikes I'd appreciate hearing your opinions.

thanks.. "

AJ wrote on May 29, 2008 8:44 PM:

" Well, we could always discuss the obvious decline in IQ levels. Lots of examples right here. "

theking wrote on May 29, 2008 8:41 PM:

" http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=65577

YOU CALL THIS CHANGE? HES THE SAME AS EVERY OTHER POLITICIAN, A LIAR. TWISTING STORIES FOR POLITICAL GAIN. AND THE MEDIA GAVE HILLARY A BAD RAP FOR HER SNIPER STORY. "

theking wrote on May 29, 2008 8:36 PM:

" 2 different reports in 2 days on chinese spying on the united states. they are spying on us on a level not seen since the cold war. "

karl wrote on May 29, 2008 7:53 PM:

" No war and politics?
OK!
Lets rag on Religion then! LOL! "

nature lover wrote on May 29, 2008 7:40 PM:

" U know, excnyer, u reminded me that Auburn used to use specialized recycle trucks that had open tops and they would throw stuff in special areas as there were separators in it. That was when we 1st started and u put metal and glass out same trash day. Wondering what happened to those trucks...hmmm "

movedsouth wrote on May 29, 2008 6:45 PM:

" Maybe sometime someone will post something other than war and politics so we can keep the jerks off two cents! "

cm wrote on May 29, 2008 6:00 PM:

" excnyer --trash pickup--thats a great idea! I think I will pass that onto our mayor. "

cm wrote on May 29, 2008 5:56 PM:

" CVN--beyond perfecto!
I concur--ITS A DUCK! "

excnyer wrote on May 29, 2008 5:25 PM:

" RE: Trash pick-up
Just wanted to let you know, in Cortland, the trash (garbage) trucks have recycling trailers hooked-up to the trucks. Looks like they are trying to conserve energy. Auburn, did you hear that? "

karl wrote on May 29, 2008 3:54 PM:

" How many times do I have to say this?
KARL ROVE HIMSELF said that McLellan was DELIBERATELY KEPT "UOT OF THE LOOP"--he was excluded from knowing the full story, and only told what the president and Rove wanted the people to hear.
The A-moral scum Rove couldn't possible take the chance that someone with a shred of scruples would have a conflicted conscience and say "No, I can't say that; it's not true"--so he was told and made to believe exactly what he defended at the time.
Scott McLellan was sold the lie just like HE sold the lie to the reporters and the American people.
NOW, he found out how he was duped, and he's pi$$ed--it's perfectly logical, and without a shred of unethical or spurious motivation. "

nature lover wrote on May 29, 2008 3:51 PM:

" Many are coming to a conclusion that gas/oil/diesel is actually becoming a scarce commodity, not an overpriced one. Middle East was forced to toot many moons ago that they had endless supplies when they really dont. And the ANWR drilling is just a bunch of wishful thinking there also. Conservation will rear its (ugly) head again, not because its fashionable but because we will have to. "

AJ wrote on May 29, 2008 3:30 PM:

" Regarding the show with Van Auken, it starts at 9:00 pm est. "

AJ wrote on May 29, 2008 3:29 PM:

" Coward of an employee? It took a lot of guts for SM to do what he did. You're just mad cause you're still delusional about this administration.

I really think its time for you and your doctor to take a closer look at your treatment. "

AJ wrote on May 29, 2008 3:16 PM:

" Just wanted to give a heads up to anyone interested that tonight on AAR one of the Jersey girls, Lorie Van Auken, will be on. The other guests along with Lorie should make for a highly informative show.

You can stream from http://airamerica.com/clout "

theking wrote on May 29, 2008 3:08 PM:

" #1 karl i dont think i made you puke. i think that sissy soy milk and tofurkey would make anyone puke.
#2 i already told you that you have no right to complain about gas prices when your party will not allow us to explore our land for fuel and wont allow us to build refineries. "

chris van note wrote on May 29, 2008 3:04 PM:

" Scott McClellan being asked about Richard Clarke’s book (3/22/04):

Q Why do you think he’s doing this?

MR. McCLELLAN: Well, why, all of a sudden, if he had all these grave concerns, did he not raise these sooner? This is one-and-a-half years after he left the administration. And now, all of a sudden, he’s raising these grave concerns that he claims he had. And I think you have to look at some of the facts. One, he is bringing this up in the heat of a presidential campaign. He has written a book and he certainly wants to go out there and promote that book

Say what? "

cm wrote on May 29, 2008 2:47 PM:

" yetanotherpinhead, In my area we have leaf/limbs pick up weekly. It is a silly thing that we bag them--Because they open the bags, dump the leaves into the truck and pile the bags on the ground.
Or since it is also a trash day-they will leave the bags on top of the trash cans!
On recycle day --also once a week--we have a bin for newspapers and a bin for plastic--If the bins are not out they dont stop.
personally I think it would be easier on them if we had green trash cans for yard waste only. It must be a pain opening and dumping 30 bags at ne house! "

cm wrote on May 29, 2008 2:27 PM:

" Medal of Honor and Freedom Medal for his selfless courage? what a total joke karl !!
Since you've NOT been in the military you havent a clue as to how disgraceful that is, thinking a coward of an employee would get such an honor for writing an after-the facts-book!

as I have stated before--you and AJ need to visit the armory--a senic walk from your home--and tell it to a REAL soldier of courage!!! "

Farmer's Gal wrote on May 29, 2008 2:08 PM:

" The end of prosperity for the elite, the "opulence of the minority" Hamilton so wanted to protect from the rest of us? "

karl wrote on May 29, 2008 1:35 PM:

" Queenie thanks to you I just about puked up my Liberal lunch from laughing so hard! LMFAO--"liberalism will be the end to the prosperity of the united states."--LOL!!!!!
LISTEN UP, YOU IMBECILE!!--Conservatism and these bloody Conservatives and their twisted spawn, the "neocons" HAVE ALREADY RUINED THE PROSPERITY OF THE USA! Have you seen the economy/price of gas/housing market/deficit/weak dollar/unemployment lately?!?!?
Have you been paying attention to the news, you idiot? Or is everything just fine over at Faux? Or is Chris still telling you that the economy is "strong"?!
Sheesh, man! When people over in Europe talk and complain about "stupid Americans", surely YOU are the poster child for them! "

karl wrote on May 29, 2008 1:25 PM:

" cm, I agree with AJ--your posts at times make sense only to yourself apparently--you lose me in about 50% of them!
Typical of you though, not to recognize that a person can actually have a change-of-heart; to realize that their superiors kept them in the dark while feeding them just enough to cover their superior's a$$es--Vice-Scumbag Karl Rove just admitted that last night on television.
McLellan has seen the truth and repudiated the neocon policies and lies--he deserves no less than the Medal of Honor and Freedom Medal for his selfless courage.
I'm starting to believe that we might actually see Bush and Cheney swing one day, "

theking wrote on May 29, 2008 1:07 PM:

" thanks brew ill take that as a comliment. you aj and karl are so alike you could be the same person. just remember i warned you that liberalism will be the end to the prosperity of the united states. "

brew1234 wrote on May 29, 2008 12:37 PM:

" So if you disagree with the queen of crap you are a sexual pervert? Queenie you are sick and in need of a professional help. "

yetanotherpinhead wrote on May 29, 2008 12:27 PM:

" Good luck trying to wrap your head around the city's new Streamline recycling schedule.. I think residents of Auburn Prison have less restrictions put on them. Also delighted to see that they've completely done away with curbside pick-up of leaves in the Fall unless they're bagged. That should go over REAL well. Apparently the couple times per Fall the loader and dump trucks would come around was just too much. Lots of trees in Auburn, folks. I know I'll be bagging 100 bags or more. Oh well.. I can esily absorb those costs.. and where do all those plastic bags end up, anyway? "

theking wrote on May 29, 2008 12:05 PM:

" WOW AJ YOU HAD ME FOOLED. I thought I saw you guys down in cali. a few weeks ago. OBAMA doesnt even know the difference between Memorial day and Veterans day, and you want this dweeb running the USA. "

AJ wrote on May 29, 2008 11:47 AM:

" FG, that's really sad about your friend's brother. Have you seen the Winter Soldier testimony in fron of Congress? Democracy Now aired some of it. "

AJ wrote on May 29, 2008 11:38 AM:

" CM, I think your meds are wearing off again. Either that or you've taken too many again. Whichever it is, you're not making any sense, as is so often the case. "

Farmer's Gal wrote on May 29, 2008 11:01 AM:

" I've also seen recently that KNOWN cases of PTSD among soldiers is up 50%, and the military officials themselves suspect the problem is much more widespread due to military persons being ashamed to seek help with this particular problem.

I had a girlfriend in high school (long ago, in another state) whose older brother had been in Vietnam. He came home a total basketcase. They could not take care of him or even deal with having him around the house -- he would be sitting quietly, then suddenly break out screaming hysterically in fear, he would pee all over everything indoors and out, he was obviously seriously, seriously mentally messed up. Yet when they tried to place him in one institution after another, he would run away and come home again -- once from over 200 miles away, all the way on foot and alone without any money. When I knew him, he was living there in his urine-soaked room terrorizing the rest of the family (unintentionally) with is violent outbursts. It was one of the saddest things I have ever seen -- his family had no money and no resources to cope with his serious psychological problems, yet he just wanted to be at home with his family.

Seeing people die and killing people yourself WILL change a person, and not for the better. I concur that sometimes it is necessary, though I disagree on the necessity of THIS war. But even if these guys and gals come home at all, and further come home physically whole, large numbers of them come home crippled inside. The worst cases are the ones where it isn't obvious, the ones who have accepted and internalized all the horrific things they have done and seen -- some of them scare me. "

cm wrote on May 29, 2008 11:01 AM:

" AJ IF: "I cannot do a thing about that now, but I would have had something to say about it if I were alive back then"

what did you do/say on 9/11?
What did you do/say on "shock 'n awe" day?
Why do you always go back to "history" to attempt to wake us up?
Why do you rant about the ongoing war?
= = = CANNOT DO A THING ABOUT IT NOW! "

AJ wrote on May 29, 2008 11:00 AM:

" Gee kingofcrap, sounds like you're jealous. I know this is going to hurt cause you want in on some of what you think is going on, but neither Karl or I are gay, so you'll have to try and get in on something somewhere else. "

cm wrote on May 29, 2008 10:55 AM:

" "attack of conscience"--A real American hero KARL you have got to be joking!!!!!

that title goes to a person who DOES SOMETHING in the MOMENT --not wait years later to cry a sob story for MONEY!
It is clearly obvious the man has mental issues-BIPOLAR, since atleast 50 people around him daily for 10+years state this is NOT the person they worked with or knew personally! "

Gator wrote on May 29, 2008 10:52 AM:

" Karl-Do you honestly believe it doesn't trouble me knowing soldiers are dying? Let me clarify for you "I do, more than you will ever understand." Do I need to debate yours/others comments so that I can feel intelligent "No I do not". It does puzzle me why you feel it necessary to constantly offend the American Soldier by calling them lemmings, then in the next breath you say you support them. No one likes war Karl, especially not the soldiers. Now the contractors over there making lots of money.... And as for being hated I would suggest you talk to some of these soldiers because as usual the news doesn't show you the good things that are happening because it doesn't sell. I am very secure in my life choices, I am proud of the uniform I wore and the country I served and I do not need any approval nor do I need to justify myself to anyone. You may also be interested to know that not everyone in the military voted for President Bush, nor do they all blindly believe all that is said. Some are even Democrats!! "

AJ wrote on May 29, 2008 10:52 AM:

" I have to admit now that I think back on it, McLellan at times did seem to appear uneasy more than any of the other PS's, and his role was shorter lived as well. It certainly does appear that he has had pangs of conscience, something few in this administration have.

As always, the devil is in the details though, and since I have not read it I will withhold judgement. But what I am hearing so far is promising and could be the final nail in the coffin of the Bush administration. I pray to [insert your God's name here] that it is! "

cm wrote on May 29, 2008 10:50 AM:

" karl are you sure where your unlce was?
Obamas NOT! lol "

cm wrote on May 29, 2008 10:49 AM:

" Do you really think that the "medical" for the military is just NOW an issue? Vets have complained for 20yrs!
On the flip side-NOT all military medical hositals/clinics are bad. In fact they are no different in practices as public hospitals-meaning there are some bad ones too. Just as there are good doctors and bad doctors.

For instance -I had a c4-5 fusion with bone added. from the moment I woke up -I complained something was wrong-My doctor thinks hes a GOD and has fixed me. In researching, he has people that do think he's a GOD and people who state his ego is beyond him!
It all in a persons perpective!

This day and age its not just the military facing sites they've never seen before-listen to fireman or policeman on subjects of disgruntled spouses, employees, sickos, etc.
Ask Blue Cross and those like them, what are they doing about it? besides push the "deny" stamp! "

AJ wrote on May 29, 2008 10:30 AM:

" Very well said Karl. Unfortunately, they have been so thoroughly brainwashed that they cannot tell the difference between lies and truth. They can't/don't/won't recognize the truth when it hits them in the face and knocks them down.

It's a sad state of affairs, but what does encourage me is the fact that these people who were once in the majority, are now a very small minority, in spite of all of the attempts by the administration and the "liberal" media to lie about the motivations for the war. "

karl wrote on May 29, 2008 10:14 AM:

" Gotta agree with AJ about cm's "Indian" post--talk about grasping at straws! LOL!
Thanks, again, cm, for the laugh at your silly arguments! "

karl wrote on May 29, 2008 10:09 AM:

" BTW, Chris--do you think that McLellan's book would have published by Rupert Murdoch's company?!?!
I have to agree with you though, it does look "conspiratorial", but it's probably just a matter or reality.
Besides, what do YOU think made McLellan turn so fiercely on his employers and stab them so hard in the back? Do you not think that he could have found a job somewhere shilling for the Bush administration on Faux News or something? DO you really think he would just burn ALL his bridges to his past contacts and sources just to sell a lousy book? I highly doubt it!
It sounds to me like the guy had an "attack of conscience"--A real American hero, if you ask me!
By the way--he'll be on Olberman tonight! Make the popcorn, and tune in--I'll be looking for your opinion on it when it's over. "

karl wrote on May 29, 2008 10:04 AM:

" Chris, my uncle Sylvester was in WWII, and was one of the troops who reached the "Eagle's Nest" in Berchtesgaden. My other uncle Ted was a tunnel rat in Viet Nam, and later worked with PSYCHOPS. I have the greatest respect for them and for the soldiers of those wars. And believe it or not, you'd be surprised at how many current Army members are my friends; friends I've made through correspondences, and on websites.
It's too bad that you think I have no respect for the military, and for the record, you're just plain wrong. You seem to take my ardent and passionate disgust for THIS war, and for the Criminal-in-Chief as some kind of disapprobation of the actual soldiers fighting it. Not true.
Having said this, I will admit to having had my comments on this site colored by my opinion of yours and other ex-military peoples' posts, which strike me as nothing but apologetics for this war and this president--both of whom are so plainly WRONG, immoral, illegal, and everyone seems to know it but--surprise--again, only the "military types" on this site.
I realize that you guys look in the mirrors and take a rightful pride in your status as soldiers, defenders of democracy, warriors, etc--and you all definitely DO deserve that. But for you to keep standing behind the president who has DISRESPECTED YOU(!!!) and your mission, pimping you out to ensure his "legacy of greatness" and one-up his daddy, plus having sent your comrades-in-arms there so woefully unprepared and furthermore, to not be able or willing to care for them when they come home bloody and broken, well; that just strikes me as either brainwashing, plain stupidity or willful ignorance. Soldier's suicides are at a 20-year high--WHY?
Scott McLellan's book has been all over the news and I have been following the coverage closely; I have not read it yet, but in his on-camera interview this morning, he said exactly, EXACTLY what AJ and I have been alleging about Bush and Cheney for years--that this was a war sold on lies, and for power and pride. I know that's a tough pill to swallow, guys, but I wouldn't think any less of you or Gator or movedsouth or thequeen if you all just admitted "hey, we were mislead, we were part of this lie, and now it's time to hold the guilty party (Bush) accountable."
It doesn't make YOU guys accountable; you did your duty, and followed the Constitution, but your "mission" was a lie in the first place, and the bill you've been sold, the story which you use to justify it here--all this nonsense about "spreading Democracy" and "Freedom isn't Free" is just empty sloganeering when you look at the truth.
I feel sorry for you, to be 100% honest. I would hug you if I could! (wink wink). "

AJ wrote on May 29, 2008 9:55 AM:

" CM, it was for freedom FOR and FROM religion, though you probably have a hard time understanding that.

As for "taking" what we want, yes, our history is less than stellar. We stole land from indegenous people. I have spoken about that on occasion. I cannot do a thing about that now, but I would have had something to say about it if I were alive back then.

What is your point on this anyhow? It doesn't make any sense (as usual).

CVN, I know it's difficult for you, but judge the book on its information, not on its publisher. It's probably pointless for me to even mention it, cause none of it will make any sense to you anyhow. "

chris van note wrote on May 29, 2008 9:03 AM:

" AJ's solution to terrorism and dictators: Group Hugs and playing nice.
Yes Turkey was reformed by a Muslim, but its still an Islamic Democracy so it is possible.
Ah yes, the McClellen book. Since it isn't out yet, you couldn't have read it but that doesn't stop you. McClellen was on Olberman last night so now you have an opinion. Just like when you saw "Sicko" or "Loose Change"...
If the book had praised Bush, the libs would say that he's a admin lacky, just toeing the line and that he was a liar.
Since the book purportedly bashes the president, its now the liberal gospel, the real truth...
By the way, the company that published Scott McClellan’s new Bush-bashing book is Public Affairs Books, and their Editor at Large is a guy named Peter Osnos: About The Century Foundation.
The firm is owned by Perseus Funds Group
which in turn is owned by the one and only George Soros (hows that for some conspiricy theory stuff!)
Gator, don't try and reason with Karl with regard to the military, you'll just waste your breath. He has absolutly no respect for the armed forces. "

cm wrote on May 29, 2008 8:40 AM:

" Brew, dividing Iraq is also what I believe to be the best solution for NOW! "

cm wrote on May 29, 2008 8:36 AM:

" (AJ, if we see something we want, we just take it)
Karl, forcefully impose a way of life)

for history guro's --you certainly forget about your own ancestors!
Not being American Indians, did your peoples "force" them out of their land and lives when your people arrived by boat to the grand USA?
Not being Mexican did some of your cousins "force" them due south in the Spanish-American war?
Being from the North, did your ancestors "force" whites to end slavery in the Civil war?
MAYBE you should do your own genealogy and see what your ancestors "wanted and took it by force!" "

cm wrote on May 29, 2008 8:26 AM:

" well Aj, just to show proof of who reads what/and takes what they believe to be true facts YET we all could be wrong because WE WERENT THERE:

in reading what CVN (creator), Karl (religious bigotry) & FG (freedom) posted:

I think the colonist left their country for FREEDOM of religion/along with other freedoms(FG). BUT religion being the main subject.(Karl)
By obvious signatures on the Constitution/Dec. of Ind. they were ALL of different religious beliefs! (CVN)

I don't think their plan was separation of church and state, as they mention "the creator"
It seems saying "creator" instead of GOD/ALLAH/KING TUT?
would include ALL religions, everyone's beliefs of "THEIR" CREATOR.

mine is a mixture of Karl, FG, and CVN. "

Farmer's Gal wrote on May 29, 2008 7:24 AM:

" Being a Protestant signer of the D of I is like being a Mason -- all the powerful people have to join the right clubs. Doesn't mean they were all deep-believing Protestants, and the person who WROTE the Declaration was a Deist, whether he was "officially" a Protestant or whatever.

But the bottom line is that they purposely separated Church and State for a reason, and they founded the State on reason and English Common (Property) Law, not on religious law.

Many early settlers came here because of religious persecutions in their home countries, but many came to escape the law, or because they were poor and a new country would give them a fresh opportunity they would never have in the old country -- nothing to do with religion at all.

So, while I'll not deny religion has played a role in our history and development, sometimes for better, sometimes for worse, and that religious freedom and tolerance were and are important to protect, I will continue to dispute the idea that our nation was "founded on faith." It was founded on the main principle of FREEDOM, of which religious freedom is only one, and not the most integrated, since it was purposely segragated from State. "

AJ wrote on May 29, 2008 12:55 AM:

" So kingofnothing, if we see something we want, we just take it? That's what it sounds like you're saying. Who cares how many lives are destroyed? I guess that's just the divine right of empire, eh?

Finish what job, anyway? You still do not seem do have a clue that democracy was not the goal of this war criminal administration - it was oil and control of the middle east, and a way to prevent Iraq from flooding the market with cheap oil traded in Euros.

The death and human suffering we have caused for millions in Iraq doesn't seem to phase you in the least, for that you are a sorry excuse for a human being. And your blind obedience in believing the varied excuses (unsupported by fact) by the most corrupt administration in history, demonstrates a stupidity that is unfathomable. "

brew1234 wrote on May 29, 2008 12:53 AM:

" Iraq should just be divided into 3 or 4 separate nations. One for Kurds, one for Sunnis and one for the Shias and if there is another tribe make it 4. Help them start up their governmments and let them decide if it is a democracy or not. Give them some aid in starting up their economies then get the heck out. No bases or presence other than an embassy if they will allow it. "

karl wrote on May 28, 2008 10:54 PM:

" Chris, you have a point about Turkey, but here's where you're wrong---Turkey was reformed BY A MUSLIM. NOT a country who is seen as a predator on that country's oil and who's president had the stupidity to call the war a "Crusade"! (which puts a religious "jihad" connotation to the whole sorry affair!)
That's a significant difference! Revolutions can transform from within. But an aggressive invasion by the USA will NEVER find seed in Iraq. And anyway--why the hell didn't we go into Darfur then? Or back to Somalia then?
In any case--Scott McClellan's new book has just put any doubt to the claim that there was some altruistic motive to King George's War--it was an effort to "secure a legacy"--and thousands of people have died! THAT'S CRIMINAL!
Oh, and, congrats on "educating me" about the D of I--I admit I got the "deist" issue confused with the Constitution's signers. Still, if you know anything about why the founding fathers came to America in the first place, it was because a Jew was almost denied service in the Parliament after he was democratically elected--the founders wanted to see that that kind of religious bigotry never happened. So I must opine that, even if the signers WERE Protestants, don't you think it's pretty significant that they DIDN'T specifically call out a Christian God, nor even SAY "God"?!? I mean, sounds to me like they were sure trying to make a point...like....oh, maybe...Separation of Church and State?! (The OPPOSITE of what had driven them from England in the first place?!)
However, you're not going to hear me say that just because the people who signed that believed in a God that we all should, when there's absolutely NO proof. It's a quaint idea, but they also believed the world was flat, too. Think about that!? "

cm wrote on May 28, 2008 9:53 PM:

" Aj, what exactly is your purpose for a constant "this war that war, we did this to whom long before we were born?"

Whats done is done-we cant unring a bell-especially one we never touched to begin with.
We can debate history/science until the cows come home-
I have been to plymouth rock-sorry columbus wasn't!
I will turn blue telling you PLUTO is still a planet and forever will be in my eyes!
Like your DR/what to eat or not eat/this will protect against cancer but will kill your liver and you kind of need your liver--well today we do--but tomorrow they may say its just a vile ugly muscle that we can throw away!?
What was necessary then may not be needed now OR the other way around?
Are we not suppose to evolve?
Every person makes mistakes! Isnt that part of growing whether it be a nation or a simple person?
Everyone has told lies-everyone has a secret/or something they care not to share.
You say you want to 'wake us up" WHO the whole 10 of us on this site? Dont ya think u-tube would be more fitting to wake up the world? "

cm wrote on May 28, 2008 9:24 PM:

" I agree with NOT nation building--I would prefer our monies to go to needs of Americans first. But I have a heart and I understand there is a need to help other countries, I disapprove of billions of dollars to one area.
We give a lot to Africa, oil (diamonds) are there too! What benny's are we getting from there? OIL? diamonds?
WAR for OIL:
In the scheme of plans, wouldn't we benefit ourselves by tapping our own oil supplies and not BUYING from somewhere else? Everyone says Iraq is all about oil..the facts are its about MONEY being paid for oil.
Years ago we used to pay in gold (Arabs got rich), then we switched to the America dollar. Which most countries followed. The few that used Euros were not our pals.

the Euro group has decided to undercut the American dollar for oil-which affects the supply/demand --and also lowers our value of the dollar/economy.

The Euro group also sees USA, France, Russia, England, Japan, China leaning towards nuke plants/windmills/corn,etc which will also dramatically change their profit margins. Rich Arabs do not want to be poor Arabs.
Its really a clash of heads between the American dollar groups and the Euros group: AKA=MONEY
What will happen 20 yrs from now when we/other big countries are more self-sufficient? AKA=MONEY
In the present, WE take the losses (because we use above our needs/the euro kills our economy and we NEED THEM), but in the future the Middle East takes ALL the losses. AKA=Money
Also without the "stock" in oil, Americans 401's will collapse, among other investments! AKA=MONEY "

theking wrote on May 28, 2008 7:18 PM:

" AJ it doesnt matter why we went into Iraq. We are there now so we need to finish the job. A middle eastern ally with large quantities of oil would surely be a great thing for America. Iraqi's lives can only get better from here. We put too much blood and treasure into Iraq to simply cut and run. "

cm wrote on May 28, 2008 5:32 PM:

" I agree with NOT nation building--I would prefer our monies to go to needs of Americans first. But I have a heart and I understand we give to other nations too.
We give a lot to Africa, oil (diamonds) are there too!

In the bright scheme of plans, wouldn't we benefit ourselves by tapping our own oil supplies and not BUYING from somewhere else? Everyone says its all about oil..the facts are its about MONEY being paid for oil. the controversy is that Arabs want to use EUROS for payment not the American dollar. Which has been they way for years, BUT without it being in the American dollar our economy go to the toilet!
Also without the stock of oil American wouldn't have 401k's benefiting either! "

cm wrote on May 28, 2008 5:23 PM:

" Karl I simply want it to look nice in hopes that when I am buried there my kids JUST MIGHT want to visit Auburn and place flowers on my grave.
If its decent, they may want to visit where their parents grew up, see Hoopes park where their parents were married, visit Owasco lake where they played and had family picnics and enjoyed the first several years of their lives.
Maybe, check out the Vets memorial wall where their grand-dads name is, even visit the FAIR and see his stone in the Memorial there too.
Hopefully, they take my grand kids to places we took them, Harriet Tubman home, Skaneatlas lake, camping in Verona, the so many nice things of upstate NY. Even the simplest thrill of building a snowman!!!

If the town goes totally crappy, and the kids dont come, there goes my grave.
Unless you stop by once in a while--hahahaha "

AJ wrote on May 28, 2008 5:16 PM:

" Right you are Chris. Nothing like burning down the village to save it, eh?

Perhaps you don't remember, but "bringing democracy" was not the first excuse to go to war in Iraq, and was only one of many (none of which passed the smell test).

I think a group hug would have gone a lot further than bombing the heck out of it and killing 100's of thousands of innocent civilians. Few people in Iraq believe the "bringing democracy" crap and the overwhelming majority want us OUT NOW. Gee, maybe Fox news can straighten them out.

Chris, I am now utterly convinced there is NO hope for you whatsoever. "

chris van note wrote on May 28, 2008 4:41 PM:

" Karl, how were the people of Iraq going to have a chance at democracy without the forceful removal of Hussein? Maybe we should have had a group hug and said pretty please? Sometimes force is necesary to give some breathing room for democracy to flourish.
Once again a condenscending remark about the intelligence of our troops,
"(But it's typical that a soldier wouldn't know such things)". I think you'd be suprised just how much they know.
So an Islamic democracy can't be done and its futile to try? Really?
There is this one country called Turkey...but we'll keep that our little secret.
As far as the D of I, almost all of the people who signed it were Protestant Christians; Charles Carroll of Maryland was the only Roman Catholic signer.
Also, the First Article of the Nicene Creed is reflected in the Declaration of Independence. Also, isn't recognizing a "creator" and ackowlegement of God? Christian or otherwise? "

karl wrote on May 28, 2008 3:55 PM:

" Gator, my sincere apologies. Point taken, and conceded. I shall only criticize Chris directly in this manner from here out. "

Gator wrote on May 28, 2008 3:44 PM:

" Karl- I find it extremely insulting that you find it necessary to catagorize all military as stupid in your attempts to justify your thoughts. I am proud of being a military retiree, I don't personally care what your thoughts are on my career. As a military member we take an oath and have the moral character to live up to our promises. We also vote like every other American, which in some cases is by proxy because we are in foreign lands. It is extremely important to a military member who the next "Commader-In-Chief" will be since it's our literally our lives that will be on the line. So please is your zeal to make a point please stop generalizing active duty, retired, veterans, etc. Also there is a tremendous difference between visiting and living in other countries, although I lived in some wonderful locations I always happy to return to the USA. "

karl wrote on May 28, 2008 3:39 PM:

" cm, it's not THAT simple--sure, there is always the possibility, but to forcefully impose a way of life--especially when EVERYBODY knows that there's NOTHING altruistic about it; we're there to exploit and dominate their oil resources--it won't work. It smacks of Colonialism, and that's EXACTLY what Great Britain tried to do, and their reign was so brutal and unfair that the rulers nationalized the Oil Industry there--leading to the imposition of the Shah by the USA, and THAT has been haunting us ever since.
I believe that Africa has made progress because Africans themselves wanted it. Furthermore, when you're talking about some parts of Africa--like Somalia, or Rhodesia--it's almost exactly like Iraq, and just as chaotic.
YOu also have to look at the trade routes through those areas, their vested interests in Westernization, and the culture--as well as, I dare say, the religion and religious affiliations? Many of the Muslim areas are very chaotic and even at war.
Besides, what ever happened to "We are not into 'Nation-building'" ?!?!?! "

cm wrote on May 28, 2008 2:18 PM:

" karl doesnt your post reflect the near same effects in Africa? Were they not most tribal and within the past 30 yrs, some areas have taken in western values?

African cities such as Loango, M'banza Congo, Timbuktu, Thebes, Meroe and others had served as the world's most affluent urban and industrial centers, clean, well-laid out, and full of universities, libraries, and temples.

Whos to say the Middle East cannot do the same in 30 yrs? "

karl wrote on May 28, 2008 2:16 PM:

" cm, what if you HAVE NOT been given a choice--as in the MANY "no-bid" contracts that have been handed out to companies connected with the Iraq reconstruction?
And cm, for someone who wants us to "move onto more pressing issues in your locality! "--why don't you take your own advice? You're not even living here, so why do you haunt this forum at all? "

cm wrote on May 28, 2008 1:55 PM:

" the PRES will NOT stop this war-but not to fret he will be gone in 6 months.

Then next Pres. will still NOT stop this war for atleast a year.

And if its Obama he plans to continue the war in Afghanistan,

so get over it, move onto more pressing issues in your locality! "

cm wrote on May 28, 2008 1:50 PM:

" comment from above
"don't call local government --- they won't help you out"

nature says the mayor of Auburn answers his own phone-
-maybe you should call him instead! "

cm wrote on May 28, 2008 1:48 PM:

" there is a huge difference to "making profit" and gouging AJ. what I stated earlier was that if BUSH or anyone else bought stock/owned or sold dealings with oil--who am I to complain because I didn't!
No different then saying "must be nice" when someone buys something I cannot afford. I have the right to afford it if I CHOOSE.
Business need to make a profit in order to stay in business and keep jobs for people. As inflation goes up, so does pricing, along with raises/and minimum wage at times.
Gouging is profiting way over the marginal profit amounts!

50 yrs ago my dads sis asked him to join her in a land deal in Ithaca. He refused (under the mattress was safer to him-lol). Beginning 20 yrs ago she started selling of the land she bought-lot by lot for 20 yrs. It is now 6 blocks of the primmest property there, she secured her life/her kids lives/her grand kids lives/etc... For the first 10 yrs he griped and griped about her richness!
We all said "you had been given a choice" blame no one but yourself! "

karl wrote on May 28, 2008 1:19 PM:

" Well said, Farmer's Gal--I hope you're learning something, Chris.
I seriously cannot believe that you, Chris, would think that Democracy even COULD be "spread by force"!! (Just typing it makes me guffaw with derision!)
Chris, here's a clue--Democracy "spread by force" IS NOT "DEMOCRACY" AT ALL! Democracy has to grow and take root from the people, from the result of oppression, and from the collective consciousness of a cultural awakening to LIBERAL VALUES like Equality, Diversity, Liberty, FOR ALL--all those things you give lip service to so freely, but seem woefully uninformed about, Chris!
Jeezuz--what ARE they teaching our military these days?! That's frightening!
Chris, I don't think you understand the transformation of Germany and Japan at all, versus Iraq. Germany was already an Anglo culture, with "Western Values, and don't forget, Catholicism in spades. It was easy to simply rebuild the country with enough money, because the Germans have always had a Western economy, lifestyle, and values.
In Japan, the only reason we could transform that country was because THEIR "Religion"--Shinto--subjugated the individual to the Emperor (who was considered "Divine"), and by extension, to the good of the Nation. The individual was secondary to the good of the Emperor or the Nation--that's how they could form Kamikaze suicide-bombers--because the Emperor and Nation demanded it. This was UNIVERSALLY believed and followed. Therefore, when the LIVING EMPEROR HIMSELF repudiated the principle of Shintoism after WWII, the Nation of Japan and the people HAD TO repudiate the Shinto religion themselves! The modern equivalent of that today would be the Prophet Mohammed himself appearing and declaring Islam null and void--which we know can't, and won't happen.
There is no such provision or uniformity-of-belief in Islam that I am aware of. Furthermore, the Islamic countries of the Middle East are ruled and united/divided by TRIBAL loyalty--which means that no one man or leader can rule an entire country. Saddam ruled as he did--brutally--simply because it was the only way to rule such a country--by sheer force and terror. There was, and probably is NO WAY to "unite" the tribes of the Middle East the way that Japan was united as a people. They just don;t see themselves that way! (But it's typical that a soldier wouldn't know such things).
Islam is further split into Shia and Sunnni, based upon which one of Mohammed's descendants allegedly inherited his status as Prophet/Leader, so you could not hope to "unite" and rule the Islamic tribes as a collective whole. It's just NOT GOING TO HAPPEN! It's an exercise in sheer futility. CAN'T BE DONE.
Chris, I don't MEAN TO sound like I "know better", but I just do. Your hyper-patriotic talking points prove themselves to be just ignorant Right-Wing sloganeering which just doesn't hold any water. And the fact that you served in the military and yet still believe what they told you to believe neither reflects well on our current military, nor does any good to instill any confidence in me or anyone I believe who reads your comments that if we do wind up staying in Iraq "for 100 years" (As McCain would have us!) that we would have anything but bloodshed and more bodies for another century.
BTW, Chris--you should educate yourself on the meaning of the D of Ind. if you're going to quote it. "Deism" of which Farmer's Gal correctly defined, is NOT "Christianity"! Deism recognizes NO sectarian God--only a universal, and vaguely-defined "Creator"--which could be a big piece of Liberal Cheese, for all we know. "

sabrina5487 wrote on May 28, 2008 1:17 PM:

" I live on Cottage and on Friday night, Saturday night and on Sunday people going to functions at the UNC park on both sides of the street and I'm not aware that they get any tickets, but I get a ticket if on a Monday night if I'm not on the right side of the street. On Monday night there are not a lot of cars on the street. How fair is that? I try hard to obey the rules, but I can't manage to always be on the right side. Shouldn't it matter how much it obstructs traffic? Should there not be some fair play in the law? "

jlmorgansr wrote on May 28, 2008 1:16 PM:

" I find it very upsetting that Mike Stearns and Ginny Kent have formed a committee designed to explore the dismissal of a sitting board member. These individuals feel it is necessary that the board adopt a policy giving the board the authority to dismiss a board member for misconduct.
As it stands right now, the Commissioner of Education has the authority to remove a sitting board member for certain types of misconduct. For some reason Stearns feels this isn't good enough. Could this be just a ploy to ensure there is only one voice on that board? Could this be a way to undermine the elective process? If a member of the community is elected that Stearns and Pabis doesn't like, could this be used as a weapon against them?
This whole thing stinks! I think the Nazi's did something like this with the Gestapo, they got rid of everyone who spoke out against them.
So much for democracy "

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