Two Cents

Monday, May 19, 2008 12:31 PM EDT

Unfortunately, the past is like a club. You can only beat yourself in the head with it so many times until it does irreversible harm and damage.



What a poor example the New York Yankees are to kids. They have the biggest steroid abuser ever in Roger Clemens, the biggest druggie ever in Steve Howe and the biggest tax cheat ever in Derek Jeter.

A lot of taxpayers about to be faced with huge tax bills are very concerned that at Falcon Park in the past week they started games at 10 in the morning and played till 2 p.m. at night with the lights on all the time.

The almost-totally liberal media in the United States frequently makes innuendo and cute little references to their belief that any white person who says they're not going to vote for Barack because he's black are called bigots and racists. But the even higher percentage of blacks and self-hating whites who say they're going to vote for Barack because he's black don't get any name calling associated with them.

What a crock. Obama is not a Muslim, he is a Christian.

Robert Welch complains about somebody else costing him his job on Civil Service when it would be difficult to find anyone who has done more harm to the city of Auburn in the last few decades with his dumbing down of the police force, etc.




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The Citizens' Say

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There are 87 comment(s)

Farmer's Gal wrote on May 21, 2008 5:19 PM:

" Who cares if "they" blame "Liberals" (or "Conservatives")? Those are all just labels -- labels which, sadly, many of us have internalized.

GML is on the money -- keep everyone distracted with bickering between themselves and it leaves those truly in power free from any real opposition. The old divide and conquer strategy is working so well we do it to ourselves and the real Bad People (tm) don't have to lift a finger to keep us out of their hair.

That doesn't mean that there isn't plenty of corruption in our government -- quite the contrary. They've just got it down so well....

Personally, I'm not sure if I believe 9/11 was an outright "conspiracy" or an event which politicians had a hand in manipulating into happening and/or suspected and allowed to happen, which they then leveraged to their own political agendas. I'm not sure it matters all that much. The point is, one cannot trust our government, cannot put anything past the real people in power (which I doubt includes every person in Congress -- I am sure there are some honest and earnest people mixed in for credibility) - and that needs to change.

As citizens, we need to work to effect that change. It's the "long string of usurpations" as in the Declaration of Independence.

It is pointless arguing issues with people whom you know will not change their minds, and it is counter-productive (and makes you, and hence your cause, look bad) to go on and on with name-calling and stooping to levels beneath you. Stop wasting energy on the unwinnable battles (isn't that what many of us say about the current war?!??) and instead put your efforts in places where you have a better chance of making a difference.

Consider your audience -- adapt your topic and approach to meet them where they are. You'll have a better chance of people listening and considering what you have to say. "

AJ wrote on May 21, 2008 3:20 PM:

" Well said Karl. Inasmuch as I don't like to think we are spinning our wheels on this and other important issues, I get the feeling that we are like trees falling in the forest with nobody around to hear the sound. I suppose if we wake up even just a few people it will be worthwhile though, so I'll keep plugging away as I know you will.

"

karl wrote on May 21, 2008 1:46 PM:

" TJ, and "unknown",--sorry to disagree,--and disagree vehemently!
THERE IS NO MORE IMPORTANT TOPIC IN THE WORLD TODAY THAN OUR OWN GOVERNMENT'S INVOLVEMENT IN 9/11~!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
From an illegal war that has bankrupted our country, destroyed our military, financed China's huge military buildup and surging demand for oil, to the National Debt stuck on every one of our sagging shoulders, to the erosion of our freedoms, our privacy, and the undermining of our Constitution and Constitutional rights---ALL THIS STARTED WITH 9/11!!!!
The fact that our President and especially Vice President are in fact War Criminals, Murderers, Liars, and Profiteers doesn't bother you one bit I guess?
The ancient Romans used to ask the first question before a trial started--"Who benefited?"--in this case, it's plain to see that 9/11 was the golden goose for all the twisted dreams of the last horrible, destructive 8 years!
9/11 STARTED ALL OF THIS!!!!!
I assert in the strongest possible language that I believe 110% that this administration was intimately involved in the bombing and destruction of the World Trade Centers!!!! "

AJ wrote on May 21, 2008 1:17 PM:

" TJ, what do you believe is more important than an issue which is responsible for the shredding of our constitution and being put on a permanent war footing?

Darn cave dwellers!

Heaven help us! "

AJ wrote on May 21, 2008 1:13 PM:

" GML, believe me, I "get it". You should, IMO, note that the people who blame "liberals" for all of society's woes are the ones who are so myopic, that they don't.

Otherwise, good post! "

TJ wrote on May 21, 2008 12:57 PM:

" I have to agree with the last 2 posters, how much more of this political bull do we have to go through. It was good at the beginning, but the same old information is being repeated over and over. I have nothing against political debate, that is fine, but it gets out of hand when the debate is reduced to name calling and threats. We all have our own opinions about our gov't, and what is wrong with respecting each person's opinion, and moving on to the next topic? In other words, agree to disagree. There are lot more serious problems that can be discussed besides the 9/11 conspiracies. "

Unknown... wrote on May 21, 2008 12:12 PM:

" Well said, GiveMeLiberty. It's tiresome to get on here and see nothing but rantings & websites from AJ. He's trying to turn this into his own personal political playground. It's very boring. And to think that he believes that the gov't. was behind 9/11 is absurd. "

GiveMeLiberty wrote on May 21, 2008 10:40 AM:

" This forum is a microcosm of all that is wrong with this country. . .

If this is what passes for political discourse, it is no wonder that we are sunk.

You people are so caught up in attacking each other that you fail to recognize your own differences and similarities. You have all been trained by whatever "side" it is you think you are on to recognize and attack those who are on the other "side".

What you all fail to see is that while we are down here in the melee, railing against each other, the politicians are driving this country into the ground, to their benefit and to the detriment of all of us. If you think there is a major difference between the two "parties", then you just aren't paying attention.

You people sit here and attack each other because you think that you are political enemies. You feel that the struggle is "us" vs. "them". The lines are drawn but they are drawn the wrong way.

If you have a political enemy, he is not the guy down the street who is going to vote for the "candidate" from the "other" party. Your political enemy is not the obviously misguided and biased individual on your local newspaper's website. Your political enemy is in Washington DC. The REAL "us" is the American People, the real "them" is our politicians.



PS. Farmer's Gal is a notable exception to this rant. She appears to "get" it. "

Farmer's Gal wrote on May 21, 2008 8:18 AM:

" Brew -- good points. I have often said that I am an isolationist at heart. I know it isn't a practical position in the modern world, but it's still where my heart is -- take care of your own people first. If there is extra money left over, by all means, apply it charitably abroad.

Defense money should go first to defending our borders -- against terrorist attacks, invasions, illegal aliens and also economically destructive imports. Our National Guard should ALWAYS be here at home guarding our nation and helping with natural disaster, and never, ever sent abroad -- that's what the Army, Navy and Marines are for, while the Coast Guard and National Guard should always be here.

I also agree with Karl that there should be stiff penalties for American-owned companies which move production (and jobs) out of the country, and tariffs to insure that goods produced here cost less than those made abroad -- we should not be importing products we can make right here, only things we can't make or grow here.

AJ -- I wouldn't say I am completely up-to-speed on the PA anti-corporate-personhood movement, but I am on the democracy School mailing list, and can check in with their Yahoo groups site if there's a specific piece of info for which you are looking. I believe they are up to 70-some communities which have passed ordinances regarding specific destructive practices, such as the spreading of so-called "bio-solids" (aka human sewage waste), and these ordinances include language addressing their NOT recognizing corporate personhood in this town. There are some places in Vermont and/or New Hampshire too, where their issue is companies which suck up the entire local aquifier for bottled water, leaving the community short while some company sells the water. I think overall, more than 100 communities across the country have something in the works if not already passed.

As I've mentioned, you can check out the public website for the CELDF for solid up-to-date information on that whole movement and its progress -- www.celdf.org

Hope that helps. "

cm wrote on May 21, 2008 8:14 AM:

" brew that's a nice song..
BUT how many years have we given to the poor countries? ans.=long before we were born!
now, how have they evolved with what we have already given them? ans.=slim to none..
NO different than ALOT of welfares sitting on a stoop begging for more!
There will always be dictators,tensions, and war with the USA included or not.
what happened after pearl harbor?
ans.=BOOM!
did anyone mess with us for awhile, heck no! they were scared out of their pants!!

The soap opera:
Until the Osama--he decided to test our BOOM theory--he found we had left the front door unlocked,easy access! He lived in our house without one member of the family noticing. Our family was way too busy-microwave meals/soccer moms/busy busy busy. One morning while we ate our breakfast he took our lives. And just as easy as coming in the front door, he walked out of it.
he waited for the BOOM--it was silent.
Days later there was a BOOM, but it was on his brothers house. He laughs and mocks us silly Americans! While we cry to the UN-help us!! They say "be good boys & girls and go back home, all will be talked out". "you're safe" they say, no more lighters on the planes"!
The Dems pass a law "no more bullies allowed in America", finally we are safe!
He mocks our stupidity/easily manipulated/free spiritedness, while he waits. He knows we might lock the front door now BUT we're dumb enough to leave the back door open. No BOOM will follow, easy as taking candy from a baby!

reality:
I totally agree to secure our borders better! Invest more into CIA operations.
BUT then you have the bleeding hearts/the anti-humane groups begging for the immigrants. It never stops!

"

brew1234 wrote on May 21, 2008 2:36 AM:

" Maybe if we improved the quality of living in poor countries around the world they would be less susceptible to the rule of dictators and tyrants. Maybe they would create a demand for our manufactured goods. Maybe tensions around the world would lessen. Imagine there's no hunger. Imagine there's no war. Imagine we could live as one.

Isolationalism is not a bad policy towards war. But Pearl Harbor happened because we were defenseless. Our borders should be strongly protected and early detection of plots and attacks on our nation should be a priority but we should keep our noses out of world conflicts. The UN should do this and could do it if we properly supported it with proper funding. The republican conservative style of breast beating and threats should stop and world coflicts should be worked out by the world community. "

karl wrote on May 21, 2008 12:54 AM:

" KING--please, read this:
http://www.conservativenannystate.org/cns.html "

quiveringthigh wrote on May 21, 2008 12:06 AM:

" AJ, considering how ignorant you are about politics, you should might not even post here. It's like, begin the day with a friendly voice, then BOOM politics. RIP John Rutsey! It wasn't his quote, but he did manage to pioneer the first RUSH album!
On a lighter note........... I LUST FOR LIFE!!!!!! "

theking wrote on May 20, 2008 8:58 PM:

" yo carlito do you mean the link about prescott bush and the nazis?? "

AJ wrote on May 20, 2008 8:18 PM:

" no, quiveringthigh. this is a place for politics, after all. "

AJ wrote on May 20, 2008 8:18 PM:

" Oh no, not the wet fish of truth!!!

lol.... "

quiveringthigh wrote on May 20, 2008 7:44 PM:

" Do you people ever talk about anything other than politics???? It is getting tiresome. Nothing ever gets accomplished "

karl wrote on May 20, 2008 7:43 PM:

" BTW, Queenie--your misconception about how "gov regulation that causes many problems and the libs answer is to inact more gov't control. everything obama wants to do was tried by carter and those were years of failure" is THOROUGHLY DEBUNKED. "

karl wrote on May 20, 2008 7:42 PM:

" KING--I'll even call you "king" if it willl persuade you to read that link that AJ posted--it's NOT a partisan screed against Conservatism--it's really very factually researched and incredibly astute.
Please don't make the mistake of not educating yourself about what it has to say. Unless of course, you're one of those types who won't admit you're wrong even when the Wet Fish of Truth slaps you right across your mustachio...?
Seriously--it is really, REALLY well-researched. I challenge you to read it pick it apart, and counter it--I'll listen, but good luck. It's THAT GOOD. "

AJ wrote on May 20, 2008 6:40 PM:

" FG, are you up to speed on the PA corporate personhood issue? Just wondering if there is anything new.

If they do pass that I think I will move to southern PA. "

theking wrote on May 20, 2008 5:47 PM:

" karl i do believe the american way of life is being destroyed....by the liberals. i wont read anything aj provides because he believes 911 was done by the u.s. government so obviously its the same garbage. and karl why havent we been putting huge tarrifs on chinese goods then?? look at the trade defecit. dont say its bushs fault because its been going on for a long time. its the whole gov'ts fault. its gov regulation that causes many problems and the libs answer is to inact more gov't control. everything obama wants to do was tried by carter and those were years of failure. and if it makes you happy, im going to vote no on the turf. "

AJ wrote on May 20, 2008 5:00 PM:

" chris van note wrote on May 20, 2008 3:12 PM:
" AJ: Come on dude, I just checked out your consortium news site and what I saw was evil Neocon this and evil Neocon that. Any reputable news site wouldn't use those terms."

I don't know exactly what you're referring to but for the sake of argument I'll accept for a moment that you are not exaggerating(even though I don't believe it for a second) - the truth hurts huh?

Anyhow, are going to tell me with a straight face that the rags you read don't blame virtually all of society's ills on those pesky "liberals". Please spare me if you think I would buy that flight of fantasy. "

karl wrote on May 20, 2008 4:19 PM:

" First of all, Chris, I don't give ANY QUARTER to Military people, wives, service men, etc, as if they have a blank check to be written on "respect"--you're either right, wrong, biased, stupid, moral, ethical, etc, based on what you say and believe; doesn't matter what you do or whom you serve--god or man. Got it?
Secondly, it's amazing how predictable to a T your and cm's kind is--I make a point about where the money's going/coming from for this illegal war, and you people are telling me to "write a check". Yeah, OK. Send me YOUR receipts first; you know where you can reach me. LOL!
Queenie, the answer is simple--huge penalties and tariffs on goods produced by companies who move overseas--we need to protect our way of life, for criss'sake!
Don't you realize that the American way of life is being DESTROYED?!? Did you rad that link AJ provided? It's sheer brilliance! Brilliant, but tragic, sadm heartbreaking, that America is being turned int a serfdom and poverty 3rd world nation by your damned "Compassionate Conservative" snakes and thieves!
I sincerely CANNOT BELIEVE you don't get that?!?! "

AJ wrote on May 20, 2008 3:37 PM:

" You obviously know nothing about Robert Parry. He is a very highly regarded investigative journalist (something you're not familiar with obviously). He deals with FACTS, unlike your preferred propagandistic sources like FOX, the weekly standard, etc. See CVN, the trouble with you is that they have you so brainwashed that your brain is now dead, and cannot tell the difference. That goes for queenie and cm and a few others here as well. You can't recognize a fact when it hits you in the face.

Regarding the comments about companies moving out of the states, I say let em. They're already doing it now, aren't they? How many industries do we even have left, thanks to the bankrupt policies going back to the Raygun years. Then what should be done is if they want to sell anything here in the states, you levy an import tax. That opens up more opportunities for other companies that wish to be good citizens right here in the states. Not rocket science, at least not for thinking people. "

cm wrote on May 20, 2008 3:37 PM:

" � Auburn Enlarged City School District

Polling: 8 a.m. to 8 p.m., Casey Park, Owasco and Seward elementary schools and East and West middle schools depending on residence

VOTE?????!!!!! "

Andy B wrote on May 20, 2008 3:31 PM:

" "We need to get those BILLIONAIR CRYBABIES OFF THE DOLE and distribute the money where it will do the most good. " The United States has the 2nd highest corporate taxes in the world behind Japan.
"

Andy B wrote on May 20, 2008 3:27 PM:

" I haven't seen a single article on here that shows the platforms of any of the people running for the Auburn School Board. Sometimes this newspaper annoys me. "

chris van note wrote on May 20, 2008 3:12 PM:

" AJ: Come on dude, I just checked out your consortium news site and what I saw was evil Neocon this and evil Neocon that. Any reputable news site wouldn't use those terms.
AJ, "left wing", "liberal" and "correct" are NOT the same thing. You use quotes from any liberal source (even a non-journalist's web page or blog) and claim that they are automatically correct, while any conservative source is OBVIOUSLY distorting the facts to make an ideological point.
"

AJ wrote on May 20, 2008 2:20 PM:

" Article about Prescott Bush and the Nazi's

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2008/021008a.html

Site is run by Robert Parry, who broke the Iran Contra story in the US... "

theking wrote on May 20, 2008 1:54 PM:

" hey karl and aj since you two seem to be the most intelligent this world has ever seen please correct me if im wrong. if we place strict environmental standards and higher taxes on large companys wouldn't that cause the companies to move to china or somewhere overseas where there are lower standards,which would cause us to lose jobs, businesses and tax revenue here in the u.s.? "

AJ wrote on May 20, 2008 1:47 PM:

" I'll put my sources up against yours any day of the week, CVN.. "

AJ wrote on May 20, 2008 1:40 PM:

" Based on what, CM, what you hear from FOX news? "

AJ wrote on May 20, 2008 1:22 PM:

" Well, CM, the difference is that in your case it's true, whereas in mine it is not!

Anyhow, I agree with you 100% Karl. I have NO problem with my tax dollars going to those who need it the most.

We need to get those BILLIONAIR CRYBABIES OFF THE DOLE and distribute the money where it will do the most good. "

cm wrote on May 20, 2008 1:22 PM:

" Doctors say Sen. Edward Kennedy has brain tumor-breaking news. "

cm wrote on May 20, 2008 1:20 PM:

" KARL :another $2,000 to help poor people in the world"

take your 2grand and deliver cash to the SCAT VAN--these are peoples in YOUR OWN AREA that NEED HELP right now!!
I'll wait to see the copy of your reciept! "

cm wrote on May 20, 2008 1:13 PM:

" I am not for a dem or rep.: I vote for who I feel has
1. experience
2. knowledge of the job
3. past/but most recent voting performances(that inlcudes SHOWING up to work)
4. personal values

I expect them all to have flaws, both personally and professionally since no one is perfect. Howwver I expect these flaws I have accounted for to NOT be illegal.
I understand reality is we have yearly inflation BUT I want alot of these PORKS to be voted on and NOT slipped into a bill.
I agree people are in business to make money, BUT a huge difference from profits to gouging!
I have no problem with aiding the poor as long as they are DRUG FREE and atleast try to aid themselves at the same time.
I have no problem with paying for a good doctor as long as I get to choose who I am paying!
You know my stance on the war-I am not as nice as Bush on the subject. BOOM!
I am tired of so much monies headed out of the USA for poor africa(or whomever else)--we have helped enough-either they get off their duffs and fight their own governments or suffer/die!
The boo-hoos in my mind are well over with!
Energy? no matter what is "talked" about now, will not occur/be operational for 10 yrs. We consumers need to find other ways to conserve and pocket our own monies.
This year I AM NOT giving the electric company 900.00 for one month bill(I will find the source of the problem while I also cut back)
I am already flipping switches, pool pump ON central air OFF.
My gas tank was filled MAY 10--I still have a half-tank. I am shopping closer to home.
AGAIN there are things we CAN control and there are things we CANNOT.
For the cannots, we have to make the best choice available.
"

chris van note wrote on May 20, 2008 1:09 PM:

" Alright Karl, lets lobby to make this a voluntary contribution. I already pay enought in property taxes, school taxes, etc...
Didn't I read that you are a renter? Since you aren't paying the taxes that I pay, whip out your checkbook and write that $2000 check-payable to the UN...actually why not write it the local Salvation Army or one of the local food banks where it would do some good. "

chris van note wrote on May 20, 2008 1:01 PM:

" AJ, you talk of profound ignorance? You believe any crackpot website and conspriciy theory that supports your predjudice against Bush and/or conservatives. Like your nonsense with Prescott Bush:
Despite some early financial dealings between Prescott Bush and a Nazi industrialist named Fritz Thyssen (who was arrested by the Nazi regime in 1938 and imprisoned during the war), Prescott Bush was neither a Nazi nor a Nazi sympathizer.
Prescott Bush distanced himself from UBC and had even engaged in the collection of funds for the victims of the war in his role as president of the National War Fund.” He had, in fact, taken over as head of the United Service Organizations soon after Pearl Harbor, raising millions for the National War Fund.
The reputation of Prescott Bush's descendants should be as relevant as Joseph P. Kennedy’s for his descendants and I don't hear you badmouthing JFK or RFK...
We wouldn't want the truth and those pesky facts to get in the way of your Bush Derangement Syndrome.

Of course, you'll quote sites like Truthout or others in your "reality based" community, which of course, suffer from BDS as well.

Leave it to Karl to insult a military wife with his condenscending commentary inferring that CM is just to dull to really understand what is going on in the world and why her husband fights for his country. I'd like to say "unbelievable", but the really sad thing is he just doesn't get it. "

karl wrote on May 20, 2008 12:54 PM:

" Chris, I would GLADLY PAY, ANY DAY, another $2,000 to help poor people in the world, than by spending it on this damned war, and subsidizing Cheney's Montana uber-Ranch, and the Military-Industrial complex!
WHy don't you tell us what the War is costing every man, woman and child in the USA?
It's some ridiculous figure, like $20,000 each, if I recall?
Did you read the article there? Boy, it's a guillotine falling right on the nape of your silly, half-baked economic theories! "

Farmer's Gal wrote on May 20, 2008 12:52 PM:

" I'm sorry to say, Karl, that this flow of money upward has been an openly stated goal since the Founding Fathers. A quotation from James Madison:

"Landholders ought to have a share in the government, to support these invaluable interests, and to balance and check the other. They ought to be so constituted as to protect the minority of the opulent against the majority."

In other words, the government should be set up specifically to protect the interests of the wealthy against the rest of us.

I could trace this back to King John and the Magna Carte if you really want a long history lesson. Those nobles who made John share his power did so very specifically to get an ever bigger piece of the pie for the wealthy minority and to prevent any leaking out to the masses. That document to which we trace the roots of our own Constitutional Republic is all about consolidating the wealth and power of the already wealthy and powerful and keeping it out of the hands of anyone else.

Why do you think so much of our Law is based on PROPERTY rights?

Don't be mistaking me for a "socialist" -- but this makes me sick. By the people, for the people, of the people this is NOT. "

AJ wrote on May 20, 2008 12:51 PM:

" A really good read now in its umpteenth printing is "Democracy for the Few" by Michael Parenti. It is one of my favorites, and gives one an entirely different perspective of the whole system. It's well documented and footnoted encouraging further research, and can be read in a day or two.

I read it in the early 80's for the first time and it helped change my thinking drastically. One of those doors one must go through to get a better grip on what is happening today.
One of the topics is the "welfare" state.

HIGHLY RECOMMENDED!!! "

AJ wrote on May 20, 2008 12:44 PM:

" chris van note wrote on May 20, 2008 12:17 PM:
" Welfare does not alleviate poverty; it subsidizes it."

Partly because so little is going to the people who really need it, and so much is going to those who do not - like mega corporations and other special interests.

"

cm wrote on May 20, 2008 12:41 PM:

" karl do you have a CM file?==to justify your husband's enlistment. lol.

AJ, I think most on this site would agree I can say the same about you!==="Your willingness to embarrass yourself in public by repeatedly demonstrating your profound ignorance is truly stunning. "
"

karl wrote on May 20, 2008 12:27 PM:

" cm, your warmongering to justify your husband's enlistment is sad. Your silly comment doesn't take into account that, in each case you listed, there were Republicans on the sides of the Dems also standing with them against continuing those futile, money-and-life-wasting wars. Stop trying to paint it as black-and-white. But not only that, those were REAL wars, not profit-taking aggressive ventures for the sake of a few. "

Unknown... wrote on May 20, 2008 12:26 PM:

" On the front page of this web site there's a section called "Go Entertainment". Within that is a pick for movie show times, and you click that & specify mileage, then search. You get all these movie listing for all around here. BUT - why isn't the Fingerlakes Drive In listed there?? "

chris van note wrote on May 20, 2008 12:17 PM:

" Welfare does not alleviate poverty; it subsidizes it.
And if we foolishly elect Obama, expect more welfare, just not for the US:
The Global Poverty Act (S.2433) would require the United States to spend $845 billion ($845,000,000,000.00) on welfare to third-world countries. This amounts to a tax of over $2,000 on each man, woman and child in the United States. The foreign aid budget now stands at $300 billion; the Act would add the additional expenditure to the already huge amount allocated to assist the world.

"

AJ wrote on May 20, 2008 12:10 PM:

" Glad you liked the link Karl.

CM, do you REALLY want to talk about appeasement in historical terms?

How about these two? Iran-Contra arms for hostages, and Prescott Bush supporting the Nazis.

Just keep regurgitating that right-wing crapola from Fox.

Your willingness to embarrass yourself in public by repeatedly demonstrating your profound ignorance is truly stunning. "

cm wrote on May 20, 2008 11:56 AM:

" Democrats and Appeasement,
1938: Dem's advocated isolationism(a policy of national isolation by abstention from alliances)
result=pearl harbor

1953-Dem's demanded "talks" to end Korean war
result=stalemate

1973-Dems demanded "talks" with north Vietnam
results=Paris treaty/on year later north attacked/conquered South

2008-Dem Obama says "talk" to terrorists.
RESULT: yet to be seen, BUT history
(along with daily life)
SHOWS:
you cannot be reasonable with unreasonable people!!! "

karl wrote on May 20, 2008 11:50 AM:

" BTW, cm---you were wondering why the Senators voted for that Farm Bill? Read the article on AJ's link. How's this?--"
In these areas of public policy, and other areas discussed in this book, conservatives are enthusiastic promoters of big government. They are happy to have the government intervene into the inner workings of the economy to make sure that money flows in the direction they like — upward. It is accurate to say that conservatives don’t like big government social programs, but not because they don’t like big government. The problem with big government social programs is that they tend to distribute money downward, or provide benefits to large numbers of people. That is not the conservative agenda — the agenda is getting the money flowing upward, and for this, big government is just fine."---Geez! IS'NT THIS WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING ALL THIS TIME?!? ISN'T THIS EXACTLY WHAT I HAVE BEEN RANTING FOR MONTHS HERE?! "

karl wrote on May 20, 2008 11:47 AM:

" Boy, I have to tell you--the more I read this link from AJ, the more my blood boils--because it's all SO TRUE!
It shows how despicably Machiavellian Conservative policy is, and how anti-American their whole twisted movement is. It is so warped and anti-Humanity, that it could even be called criminal.
This link fully illustrates why I believe that Conservatism should be outlawed just like the Nazi Party was after WWII.
Word to your mother! "

karl wrote on May 20, 2008 11:42 AM:

" "Political debates in the United States are routinely framed as a battle between conservatives who favor market outcomes, whatever they may be, against liberals who prefer government intervention to ensure that families have decent standards-of-living. This description of the two poles is inaccurate; both conservatives and liberals want government intervention. The difference between them is the goal of government intervention, and the fact that conservatives are smart enough to conceal their dependence on the government.

Conservatives want to use the government to distribute income upward to higher paid workers, business owners, and investors. They support the establishment of rules and structures that have this effect."---boy, that says it all, AJ.
HEY CHRIS AND QUIVERINGQUIVERER WITH A G IN THE MIDDLE--MAKE SURE UYOU CHECK OUT AND THOROUGHLY DIGEST THIS LINK THAT AJ POSTED!!! "

cm wrote on May 20, 2008 11:32 AM:

" put in your zip code and see how your Representatives voted!!!!

http://www3.capwiz.com/mygov/keyvotes.xc/?lvl=C "

cm wrote on May 20, 2008 10:09 AM:

" I was curious as to why so many REPub's voted YES to this farm bill attached to the war bill..
I came across (Rep) Adam Putnam (one of the wealthiest members of congress)-from a prominent agriculture family in Polk County (Putnam Groves) HE owns shares of the family business, his holdings earned him 1 million last year!

On the Dem side-Bill Nelson owns pasture & undeveloped land in Brevard County worth up to 5.5 million!!

I see why Bush wants to veto this--but it looks like the rich farmers will gain---especially the rich senators and their families!!!!

Karl & AJ, you both should agree on THIS ISSUE BUSH IS RIGHT!!! and CONGRESS IS WRONG!!!
I am sending "nasty grams" out to my senators-I hope you all do the the same with to yours!!! Especially if they voted YES--to benefit themsleves!



"

karl wrote on May 20, 2008 9:35 AM:

" Oh c'mon, Queenie! Tell me that 4th post there above isn't yours?
Yeah, right! "

AJ wrote on May 20, 2008 9:34 AM:

" Haven't read the whole thing, but looks interesting. The conservatives might get an education out of this.

http://www.conservativenannystate.org/cns.html "

Farmer's Gal wrote on May 20, 2008 9:12 AM:

" For curiosity, an article on graphologists' interpretation of the handwriting/signatures of the 3 main presidential candidates:

"Hillary Clinton is smart and forceful, John McCain is proud but has a volatile temper, and Barack Obama is a diplomat who deals well with different people and situations."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080518/ts_alt_afp/usvotegraphology "

Farmer's Gal wrote on May 20, 2008 8:50 AM:

" P.S. Yes, I was a runner -- not a "jogger" but a runner. I have to fight an urge to stop my car and instruct some ninnies I see running by the side of the road because they look like such idiots. But, I bite my tongue because, gods bless them, they are out there making an effort, more power to them, even if they have no clue about the right way to run.

I ran track and cross-country, swam competitively, played soccer and flag football in high school, soccer in college, and took up volleyball and real football later in life. I had figure skating and tennis lessons as a kid too, and my mother always wanted me to play ice hockey (I grew up outside Detroit).

Since my illness then injury, I can't do any of the above. But I haven't stop working in the gym 5 days a week, and now I have a treatment underway, I am hopeful to be able to run again someday. I miss it terribly.

But I do know a bit about running. There are women who run powerfully and beautifully and not the least like ninnies. And there are men who flop along by the side of the road, arms waggling this way and that, feet flying out to the sides, or all lopsided with a stupid music thing attached to one side or in one hand. The bottom line is that it has nothing to do with gender. "

Farmer's Gal wrote on May 20, 2008 8:41 AM:

" Very few "farmers" benefit from those farm subsidies -- the vast majority go to CORPORATE agribusiness, which doesn't need subsidizing.

Imagine this scenario (taken from real life in the Fingerlakes): Corporate farm hires immigrant laborers (some legal, some not). The government subsidizes the health care and housing for these workers out of our pockets, instead of letting it be a cost of doing business on that scale. The same corporate farm OWNS the housing, so they get to collect the rent from the government for housing their own workers! How's that for working a scam on the American taxpayer? "

Farmer's Gal wrote on May 20, 2008 8:37 AM:

" It's a slap in the face to immigrants who came to this country LEGALLY to hand out citizenship to those who came here ILLEGALLY. "

Farmer's Gal wrote on May 20, 2008 8:36 AM:

" No, cm, that's runs like a ninny -- since her son runs that way too, it has nothing to do with gender. "

cm wrote on May 20, 2008 7:52 AM:

" quiver I have also been on the trail to nowhere aka"wheres hila bend" lol "

theking wrote on May 19, 2008 11:19 PM:

" karl please post my statement you deem racist. that is if your not just playing the race card like all you hippys "

karl wrote on May 19, 2008 11:03 PM:

" Geez, Queenie, you just can't stop the Racism oozing out of you like a green stinking slime, can you?
Chris Van Coulter, you are just a parrot for the extreme Right Wing of the Conservative party, aintcha? Sheesh! Do you buy into all this crap they spew or what? Your embarrassing citing of Bush as some sort of model of political policy savvy or intelligence is just plain embarrassing! Really--how can you sign your name to that post--are you smoking something?!?
I can't even bring myself to respond to the ridiculous crap that has been posted today by some! "

quiveringthigh wrote on May 19, 2008 9:49 PM:

" OK CM! Where I live there are miles of desert! Peaceful, "

theking wrote on May 19, 2008 9:30 PM:

" to chris van - i think what obama was trying to say is we must conserve so that china and india and south africa and other nations can have more for themselves. and as i heard earlier its like the father telling his family they arent going to eat tonight so the family down the street can have more. "

cm wrote on May 19, 2008 8:56 PM:

" yes quiver-- I used to live near san diego--been to "mile of cars" hahahaha
miss riding the trolley to mexico! lol. "

AJ wrote on May 19, 2008 8:45 PM:

" chris van note wrote on May 19, 2008 7:53 PM: " AJ: It was on the Associated Press, not known as a bastion of conservative thinking. "

True, not by those who are brain dead, at least.

"

quiveringthigh wrote on May 19, 2008 8:28 PM:

" quiver has "mile of cars" and I have "mile of restaurants" which right now both mine and quivers "miles" are dead zones.

Just wondering if there is a reference to me in your post. "

pentangelli wrote on May 19, 2008 8:23 PM:

" to Just venting:
by your logic, all younger people could vote the end of payng social security to folks over a certain age...someone paid when you went to school...pay for schools today OR pay for police and prisons tomorrow...you short-sighted lemmings...stop the war and you'll have lots of extra money (That Washington won't have) "

cm wrote on May 19, 2008 8:16 PM:

" Facing a possible veto(BUSH), House and Senate negotiators agreed on a $285 billion Farm bill added in with the war bill: farmers netting 1.5 million a year to recieve subsidies.
The bill also includes tax breaks for Kentucky racehorse owners, extra help for farmers in Hawaii and Alaska, money for salmon fishermen in the Pacific Northwest,those who find endangered species on their land and the timber industry.It also would provide $5 billion for farmers who lose crops due to weather.

Negotiators have been arguing for months over how to pay for the bill and still have not agreed.
President Bush said last week there was no reason to give more money to multimillionaire farmers when Americans feel the pinch of rising food prices.

"I'm still hopeful the president will sign this bill," said Senate Agriculture Committee Tom Harkin, Iowa Democrat, who recognized the possibility of a veto. "We've got to get the votes to override a veto, and we will."


"

cm wrote on May 19, 2008 8:14 PM:

" The Senate Appropriations Committee just passed the Feinstein/Craig Emergency Relief Amendment to the FY2008 Iraq War Supplemental Appropriations Bills (H.R. 2642). The Feinstein Amnesty Amendment would legalize more than 1.35 million illegal aliens and add another estimated 1.5 million illegal family members who will piggyback on this amendment.

What makes this amnesty push especially repugnant is the fact that it has been attached to a military spending bill.

email your senators to VOTE NO on this bill.
"

chris van note wrote on May 19, 2008 7:53 PM:

" AJ: It was on the Associated Press, not known as a bastion of conservative thinking. "

cm wrote on May 19, 2008 7:01 PM:

" The poll on the main page? Are they serious the county wants to move its offices from downtown??
They probably can't stand the parking kiosks either but instead of removing them they will remove themselves!!
If the county can't "survive" downtown how do they expect others too?
Or are they trying to make it harder for people to contact them???? "

cm wrote on May 19, 2008 6:56 PM:

" I beg to differ FG, there is such a thing as "run like a girl"..
I would love to show you a video of my sis running and her son runs just like her!!
On tippy-toes, arms flailing in the wind and this ear-piercing screech!

If he doesn't shake it off he's going to be roughly teased when he gets to middle school.. "

AJ wrote on May 19, 2008 6:13 PM:

" That's amazing, coming from you CVN. When you come back and tell us you have finally figured out that the Weekly Standard and some of those other rags you read are "dubious" sources, then we may feel there is hope for you after all. I for one won't be holding my breath though. "

Farmer's Gal wrote on May 19, 2008 6:00 PM:

" In a brief, simple and easy-to-understand video, please take time to locate and view the movie The Story of Stuff to see why The American Way is not sustainable, even over a relatively short time.

From the previous Two Cents, which got "lost" because I sent it in too close to the switch-over to today's new starter comments:

"Equal" does not mean "the same." Male and female physical bodies are not the same, which has nothing to do with equal intellect or equal ability to do all but brute force jobs. Men have more strength, but in general women have more endurance, and before my injury, I had more agility than your average male, being slender and wiry as well as all muscle.

When you are talking about debating politics in a public forum, having superior muscles is entirely irrelevant.

Neither a female nor an African-American should be selected over a better-qualified candidate for a job, scholarship, etc, regardless of that other candidate's gender, race, religion, sexual-orientation, etc. As far as my opinions go, I believe in Equal Opportunity, but not in Affirmative Action, as I do not believe the latter to be fair or equal. Best candidate gets the position, regardless of gender, race, etc -- I want to KNOW I am the best person for the job; I don't want it handed to me because of the chance of having been born female.

I daresay there are women qualified to be on the front lines in combat, just as there are men who aren't. The rules about such things as that and accomodations for civil service exams were put into effect by others with stupid assumptions about women.

Having played women's pro football --full tackle, NFL rules, real football, with some women ranging up over 300 pounds -- I know women who would do just as well as any man on the front lines. In fact, one of my teammates went off to Iraq for a tour of duty just outside Baghdad immediately following the 2003-04 season.

Neither I nor my teammates "ran like girls" as you so prejudicially put it. What does "run like a girl" mean, anyway? What rubbish. We ran like the athletes we were.

Meanwhile, have you ever seen Karl or AJ run? And even if you had, what's it got to do with arguing politics in a public forum? -- Answer: Absolutely nothing, it's just low mud-slinging, of which there's been too much on all sides the past couple days. It's pointless and tedious and gets us nowhere. "

justventing wrote on May 19, 2008 5:41 PM:

" Tomorrows the school budget vote. Please vote NO. The prices of everything are up, gas is crazy, and nobody is getting raises. PLEASE vote no. To those of you with kids, I think you should pay an extra 100 dollars per child in schools taxes. Why on earth does a 90 year old person have to pay school taxes? The kids are yours, you brought them into the world and you not your neighbors should pay for them. Time to be responsible. "

AJ wrote on May 19, 2008 5:10 PM:

" THE REAL JOHN MCCAIN... Flip/flop, flip/flop, flip/flop - short video clip says it all...

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/05/19/the-real-mccain-redux/ "

chris van note wrote on May 19, 2008 4:19 PM:

" I stand corrected, OISM is indeed a dubious source. I found the article on AP. "

cm wrote on May 19, 2008 3:14 PM:

" Did anyone watch the country awards last night. I caught the last hour. Was something seriously wrong with the sound/speakers/mics/acoustics?
At first I thought Garth was sounding horribe from being "off" a few years.
But everyone sounded horrible..

and how did Garth(jeans) and Trisha(blue dress) EVER get into those outfits? Butter? lotion? "

cm wrote on May 19, 2008 3:06 PM:

" 1:42 PM:excellent CVN!!!

I cant say I agree with all this global warming stuff.
I can say I do think we humans take for granted simple things like trees. Everyone wants a Mcd's/walgreens/walmart/lowes near them but at what costs? The county will say it brings in jobs and local taxes but overall it destroys the land.
I am not saying lets NOT bring in jobs BUT lets not overwhelm the areas so much that it ruins most of the environment around them.
Case fact: if it were not for man-made canals in LA, Katrina would not have happened.

quiver has "mile of cars" and I have "mile of restaurants" which right now both mine and quivers "miles" are dead zones.
what we initially thought we wanted-took away trees/added jobs/added taxes/added roads/causing more taxes/added traffic/added pollution & chemical run-offs into our water/added more taxes for cleanups, and continues on.
I watched our county counsel meeting on TV, they talk as if they're on the gieco commercials "a caveman" can do it. They stamp approval for any parcel with LOTS of trees. YET argue about tearing down ONE tree that is cracking the foundation of a home?!
I am glad I didn't vote for any of these idiots but wonder if those who did are now asking "what was I thinking?"
"

yetanotherpinhead wrote on May 19, 2008 2:50 PM:

" That petition is a joke. You'd know that with about 5 secs of googling:

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Oregon_Institute_of_Science_and_Medicine "

chris van note wrote on May 19, 2008 1:42 PM:

" Oh yeah, I thought AJ and Karl (the resident chicken littles, worshippers of both the Obamessiah and the Goracle) would find this interesting:
The Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine (OISM) will announce that more than 31,000 scientists have signed a petition rejecting claims of human-caused global warming. The purpose of OISM's Petition Project is to demonstrate that the claim of "settled science" and an overwhelming "consensus" in favor of the hypothesis of human-caused global warming and consequent climate damage is wrong. No such consensus or settled science exists. As indicated by the petition text and signatory list, a very large number of American scientists reject this hypothesis.
It is evident that 31,072 Americans with university degrees in science — including 9,021 PhDs, are not "a few." Moreover, from the clear and strong petition statement that they have signed, it is evident that these 31,072 American scientists are not "skeptics."
"

chris van note wrote on May 19, 2008 1:37 PM:

" Compare and contrast:
"We can't drive our SUVs and eat as much as we want and keep our homes on 72 degrees at all times ... and then just expect that other countries are going to say OK," Obama said.
"That's not leadership. That's not going to happen," he added.
And G.W. Bush to the Israeli Knesset:
Ultimately, to prevail in this struggle, we must offer an alternative to the ideology of the extremists by extending our vision of justice and tolerance and freedom and hope. These values are the self-evident right of all people, of all religions, in all the world because they are a gift from the Almighty God.
The liberals/left want to create an ideal society. Higher taxes to put money where they believe it should go. New laws so people will drive the "right" kind of cars. Policies will encourage parents to make sure their children are fit etc...Actually, the big idea is that Barack Obama knows what's good for you.

The big idea on the Right should be that you know what's good for you. I said should be, but McCain as president is far better than either Obama or Clinton. I'm glad McCain wants to "reach across the aisle" but it shouldn't be done just to do it.



"

yetanotherpinhead wrote on May 19, 2008 1:29 PM:

" Hey Kufs, you forgot to include biggest 1970s afro ever in Oscar Gamble. You probably didn't include him cuz you're just jealous you can't grow one! "

quiveringthigh wrote on May 19, 2008 1:04 PM:

" I second that motion!!

Also no TURF talk! "

theking wrote on May 19, 2008 12:47 PM:

" lets get this thread started out right today. NObama. "

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