Former Cayuga County Chairman George Fearon was told that the lining around pipes in the basement of a county building probably contained asbestos, according to his testimony from a November 2007 hearing.
During a dismissal hearing for John Chick, Fearon said he talked to the former county employee about removing a boiler in the County Board of Elections building and replacing it with two smaller boilers and a hot water tank.
Chick had told Fearon that there was a “probability of asbestos” being in insulation material surrounding the pipes, according to Fearon's testimony.
The February 2006 exchange took place just before Chick illegally removed asbestos along with the boiler. The removal led to a federal investigation, and Chick - a county carpenter who oversaw the project - pleaded guilty to conspiring to violate the federal Clean Air Act.
Though no other charges have been filed, Chick maintained throughout court proceedings that he was only following orders from his supervisors - Fearon and former Building and Grounds Superintendent Ernie DeCaro - when he removed the material.
Fearon denies that he had anything to do with the asbestos removal, and he
testified during a separate hearing in October that he was unaware asbestos was illegally removed until the investigation began in June.
However, Chick said Monday that Fearon's statement during the court proceedings conflict with the ones from the November hearing. This testimony is proof that he lied to federal prosecutors, Chick said.
“(Fearon) said he was never down there until June,” Chick said. “But he knew exactly what I was doing and how it was being done.”
Chick is waiting to serve a 15-month sentence in federal prison. He was scheduled to begin the sentence last week, but a federal judge granted a one-month extension so Chick can find a facility closer to his family.
Chick said Monday that he has “stepped up” and admitted his mistake. It is time for others to do the same, he added.
“I had orders to do my job, and he was one of the bosses,” Chick said of Fearon.
During the November hearing, Fearon testified that he went down to the basement of the elections office to look at the boiler, which was emitting high levels of carbon dioxide. He saw a material that looked like fiberglass, which Chick told him could contain asbestos, Fearon said.
According to Fearon's testimony, the conversation took only a few minutes. Chick contended otherwise, saying that he talked with Fearon for an hour or more.
Fearon described the dispute Monday as a matter of “he said, she said.” Yes, Chick told him of the probability of asbestos insulating the pipes. But he and other county officials understood that the project would involve cutting exposed pipe, not illegally removing hundreds of feet of pipe and asbestos, Fearon said.
“There was no concept that he was going to remove an insulated (pipe),” Fearon said. “To say we might have some asbestos somewhere is not some remarkable thing. The question is if someone is going to touch it.
“What I became aware of in June was the possibility of illegally removing asbestos,” Fearon continued Monday, “not the probability of there being some asbestos in some of the pipes.”
Fearon also maintained that the February 2006 conversation lasted only minutes.
“(Chick) can say whatever he wants to say,” Fearon said. “I didn't walk out of there looking at asbestos as being an issue.”
Staff writer Christopher Caskey can be reached at 253-5311 ext. 282 or christopher.caskey@lee.net.
Excerpts from transcript
The following are excerpts from the Nov. 1 hearing concerning John Chick's dismissal. The transcript includes questions from a hearing officer and D. Jeffrey Gosch, representative for Chick.
George Fearon, former chairman of the Cayuga County Legislature, is the respondent.
• On when a conversation took place in the county building:
Q. You went with Mr. Chick to the basement?
A. Right.
Q. Do you recall when this was?
A. It was a day after Presidents Day.
Q. I'm sorry?
A. The day after Presidents Day, which would have been a Tuesday in February.
Q. And how long were you down there with Mr. Chick?
A. About five minutes.
• On the material Fearon saw wrapped around pipes in the basement:
A. I said this looks like fiberglass.
Q. You're speaking of the part where the -
A. This insulation.
Q. Where the insulation, all right. You're talking, did the insulation -
A. Exposed insulated pipe.
Q. Was the insulation a wrap around the pipe?
A. The insulation is similar to what I would see if I went in Home Depot right now, to my looking, but it might have other stuff mixed with it. To me, it looked like fiberglass, and that's the confirmation I was given.
Q. I'm sorry, I missed what you said at the end, sir.
A. It looked like fiberglass, and that's the confirmation I was given.
Q. Mr. Chick said that to you?
A. Right.
Q. That it was fiberglass?
A. Right, right.
• On the probability that the material contained asbestos:
Q. You were trying to describe for us what your conversations were with John and what his were with you at this meeting.
A. John stated a probability of asbestos being in (pipe) elbows.
Q. A possibility or probability? I'm sorry, I didn't hear you.
A. I'm saying probability, I think would be the appropriate word.
Q. Okay. Where would those elbows have been? At the end of the insulation where you are showing us a turn there?
A. Okay, I'm not sure of my answer.
• Further discussion of asbestos:
Q. When John told you that there was a probability of asbestos, did you have any further conversation with him in that regard?
A. I discussed the concept that was presented in committee, disconnect/connect.
Q. You discussed this with John?
A. Right
Q. All right. And do you recall particularly what you said to him and what he said to you in that conversation?
A. I'm not sure he said anything to me. But I just went over the -
Q. I'm sorry?
A. I don't remember him saying to me.
Q. You remember saying it -
A. I just remember talking about the simplicity of the job.
Q. Okay. And he didn't say anything in response to that to you?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Okay. You recall whether or not you asked him whether the elbows had to be disturbed to do the job?
A. I didn't ask him that question.
Q. You didn't ask him. And this was - your meeting with John down there occurred before any work had occurred, correct?
A. I would think no work had taken place when I was there.
Chick had told Fearon that there was a “probability of asbestos” being in insulation material surrounding the pipes, according to Fearon's testimony.
The February 2006 exchange took place just before Chick illegally removed asbestos along with the boiler. The removal led to a federal investigation, and Chick - a county carpenter who oversaw the project - pleaded guilty to conspiring to violate the federal Clean Air Act.
Though no other charges have been filed, Chick maintained throughout court proceedings that he was only following orders from his supervisors - Fearon and former Building and Grounds Superintendent Ernie DeCaro - when he removed the material.
Fearon denies that he had anything to do with the asbestos removal, and he
testified during a separate hearing in October that he was unaware asbestos was illegally removed until the investigation began in June.
However, Chick said Monday that Fearon's statement during the court proceedings conflict with the ones from the November hearing. This testimony is proof that he lied to federal prosecutors, Chick said.
“(Fearon) said he was never down there until June,” Chick said. “But he knew exactly what I was doing and how it was being done.”
Chick is waiting to serve a 15-month sentence in federal prison. He was scheduled to begin the sentence last week, but a federal judge granted a one-month extension so Chick can find a facility closer to his family.
Chick said Monday that he has “stepped up” and admitted his mistake. It is time for others to do the same, he added.
“I had orders to do my job, and he was one of the bosses,” Chick said of Fearon.
During the November hearing, Fearon testified that he went down to the basement of the elections office to look at the boiler, which was emitting high levels of carbon dioxide. He saw a material that looked like fiberglass, which Chick told him could contain asbestos, Fearon said.
According to Fearon's testimony, the conversation took only a few minutes. Chick contended otherwise, saying that he talked with Fearon for an hour or more.
Fearon described the dispute Monday as a matter of “he said, she said.” Yes, Chick told him of the probability of asbestos insulating the pipes. But he and other county officials understood that the project would involve cutting exposed pipe, not illegally removing hundreds of feet of pipe and asbestos, Fearon said.
“There was no concept that he was going to remove an insulated (pipe),” Fearon said. “To say we might have some asbestos somewhere is not some remarkable thing. The question is if someone is going to touch it.
“What I became aware of in June was the possibility of illegally removing asbestos,” Fearon continued Monday, “not the probability of there being some asbestos in some of the pipes.”
Fearon also maintained that the February 2006 conversation lasted only minutes.
“(Chick) can say whatever he wants to say,” Fearon said. “I didn't walk out of there looking at asbestos as being an issue.”
Staff writer Christopher Caskey can be reached at 253-5311 ext. 282 or christopher.caskey@lee.net.
Excerpts from transcript
The following are excerpts from the Nov. 1 hearing concerning John Chick's dismissal. The transcript includes questions from a hearing officer and D. Jeffrey Gosch, representative for Chick.
George Fearon, former chairman of the Cayuga County Legislature, is the respondent.
• On when a conversation took place in the county building:
Q. You went with Mr. Chick to the basement?
A. Right.
Q. Do you recall when this was?
A. It was a day after Presidents Day.
Q. I'm sorry?
A. The day after Presidents Day, which would have been a Tuesday in February.
Q. And how long were you down there with Mr. Chick?
A. About five minutes.
• On the material Fearon saw wrapped around pipes in the basement:
A. I said this looks like fiberglass.
Q. You're speaking of the part where the -
A. This insulation.
Q. Where the insulation, all right. You're talking, did the insulation -
A. Exposed insulated pipe.
Q. Was the insulation a wrap around the pipe?
A. The insulation is similar to what I would see if I went in Home Depot right now, to my looking, but it might have other stuff mixed with it. To me, it looked like fiberglass, and that's the confirmation I was given.
Q. I'm sorry, I missed what you said at the end, sir.
A. It looked like fiberglass, and that's the confirmation I was given.
Q. Mr. Chick said that to you?
A. Right.
Q. That it was fiberglass?
A. Right, right.
• On the probability that the material contained asbestos:
Q. You were trying to describe for us what your conversations were with John and what his were with you at this meeting.
A. John stated a probability of asbestos being in (pipe) elbows.
Q. A possibility or probability? I'm sorry, I didn't hear you.
A. I'm saying probability, I think would be the appropriate word.
Q. Okay. Where would those elbows have been? At the end of the insulation where you are showing us a turn there?
A. Okay, I'm not sure of my answer.
• Further discussion of asbestos:
Q. When John told you that there was a probability of asbestos, did you have any further conversation with him in that regard?
A. I discussed the concept that was presented in committee, disconnect/connect.
Q. You discussed this with John?
A. Right
Q. All right. And do you recall particularly what you said to him and what he said to you in that conversation?
A. I'm not sure he said anything to me. But I just went over the -
Q. I'm sorry?
A. I don't remember him saying to me.
Q. You remember saying it -
A. I just remember talking about the simplicity of the job.
Q. Okay. And he didn't say anything in response to that to you?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Okay. You recall whether or not you asked him whether the elbows had to be disturbed to do the job?
A. I didn't ask him that question.
Q. You didn't ask him. And this was - your meeting with John down there occurred before any work had occurred, correct?
A. I would think no work had taken place when I was there.
