" GML-you forgot that recently in Florida a new law was just signed that an employee CAN keep a gun in their car as long as they have a concealed weapons permit.
BUT an EMPLOYER has no way of checking that one holds a permit legally.

I am willing to bet that in about 5 yrs when too many employees/employers are killed due to this new law it will be changed!

you state only NORMAL people use guns for self-defense with silly stats to try to back it up.
Stats can change from one survey group to another. Even in those groups they can change hourly-depending on the question asked.
Background checks are only good for the HOUR they are recieved-what may be NORMAL when someone woke up might not constitute NORMAL by their lunch hour.
Along with-if your state does NOT have laws to protect YOU from killing someone on YOUR property-- YOU will go to prison instead of the true criminal.

for sure if grandma pointed a gun at possible robbers -SHE would be on CNN!
"

" I know, cm -- the government wouldn't like to have the citizens literally up in arms against them. ;-) It's like my mom saying that income tax is unconstitutional. She's most likely right, but I wouldn't try not paying my taxes (some people who tried that ended up dead -- Ruby Ridge, right? I think they also believed in the Second Amendment, and the government didn't like their politics, so cm's case is proved!)

If someone respectfully requests to have personal and public personas kept separate, it's plain courtesy to respect that request. Simple. The only dissing going on is when that request is not respected. No bashing, just a request to be considerate of other people's privacy when they've requested it so specifically, and puzzlement when that request is so flagrantly and repeatedly ignored (as in making flippant and unnecessary references to the guys with whom he works).

BTW, some folks out here in the boonies DO have signs indicating they have guns and would be prepared to use them. "

" CM - "Yes there maybe a time or two that having a gun (handy) would aid-I have heard once or twice on the news that a gas station owner has prevailed with HIS gun."

Well, CM, you COULD go by how many times you think you remember hearing about it happening. . . but I think your perception might be a little skewed. You can't honestly believe that every time grandma pulls a revolver out of her purse and scares away 5 teenage muggers that will even be reported to the police, much less make headlines on CNN.

The facts are that over 95% of incidents of lawful self-defense using a firearm end without a shot being fired. Normal people don't want to shoot anybody, and are content to let the bad guys run away, as is their wont when faced with armed resistance.

So, how many times a year does a US citizen use a firearm in legal self-defense? The answer may shock you. There have been over 13 studies trying to ascertain this number. The one widely-regarded as the most accurate put the number at around 2 million times per year in the US. The rest of the studies range from 800,000 to 2.4 million.

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html


As to your totally unfounded attack on Mr King below, where you offered a complete psychoanalysis based on nothing more than your intuition and a few sentences where he indicated that he carried a gun for self defense, you might want to take a look at this site:

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdgcon.html

An except:
"What we can say with some confidence is that allowing more people to carry guns does not cause an increase in crime. In Florida, where 315,000 permits have been issued, there are only five known instances of violent gun crime by a person with a permit. This makes a permit-holding Floridian the cream of the crop of law-abiding citizens, 840 times less likely to commit a violent firearm crime than a randomly selected Floridian without a permit." ("More Permits Mean Less Crime..." Los Angeles Times, Feb. 19, 1996, Monday, p. B-5)

It's funny that Karl isn't impressed by statistics. That is a pretty impressive statistic to me. Concealed-carry license holders in Florida are less likely to commit a violent crime.

Half as likely? No.
5 times less likely? No.
10 times less likely? Not even close.
50 times?
100?
840 TIMES less likely!

That is not impressive to Karl. But if we make these same people wait 5 days to add a new gun to their collection, that will impress Karl. "

" OMG enough of the gun yakking. Its our right as American citizens to have guns - end of story, regardless of the use. What ever twist they put on it like a wait period sobeit, the 2nd is NOT going away. CM, guns are NOT the enemy. U chose dogs and an alarm system, some go further. We are seriously considering getting a firearm here. And guess what, we are liberal, did the LSD decades ago non NRA supporters.

And what the heck is with bashing QT anyway? If he knows (of) a person WTF is wrong with simple xref's? Is he supposed to channel familiarity out of his mind. There is constant personal outbursts made on this website so I dont get why he is singled out - he truly isnt thee most irritating on here in my opinion. We talk about basic rights here and if he wants to yak sobeit - others do to no end sometimes. I agree this two cents seems to be run by the same people with the occasional old warped person or the elite, know it all, playing devils advocate.

And QT what is it with you and your ref's to Auburn and crack as of late? just curious because I have never done it and dont know anyone in town that has? Auburn may not be brew's utopia where everyone can afford curbs but it is a good place.

So TGIF, hope you chilled a bottle down...is it summer already? Proost "

" do you guns owners keep huge signs on ALL your windows and doors "I have a gun"???? I doubt it.
As for MY windows, they are too high and small, time-consuming, to get thru-I was thinking ahead when remodeling rooms and adding new windows. Enough to get out in case of a fire but a total hassle to get into.
I have door alarms, mostly for the grandkids, since I have a pool. Plus a pool alarm that sensors a splash or ripple. I plan to purchase a security door for the front door-since too many wackos try to just push thru the front door when you open it.
Overall I think I have taken proper steps for safety without having to purchase a gun.

Leon, I think I would attempt to do something-my thoughts would be some kind of DNA evidence.
"

" "Owning a gun will not deter them!"

Yes, it will, if they even think you *might* have one. Criminals are basically cowards at heart, if they think you're going to fight back and possibly win, they'll go somewhere and find a weaker person to prey on. "

" cm, i respect the fact that you dont want guns in your house. thats fine. i just dont see how you think you know me and think i would run and hide. i dont carry a gun out of fear as you stated. i carry it to eliminate evil if the time ever comes. and hows your adt system protect you . its not that hard to break your window and go to your room and shoot you. its not like the cops will be there anytime soon. i bet you would wish you had a gun for self defense then. just because i want to protect myself doesnt mean i am scared. i think you should just admit your wrong on this issue instead of posting your thoughts on guns which i can tell you have no idea what your talking about. "

" "A robber is a robber--he does not care if you have a gun! If you have something he wants and HE has a gun--he is no where near afraid of you."

Studies done interviewing inmates prove this statement completely wrong. If an intruder even thinks you're armed, they'll go somewhere else. They're more afraid of being shot by a homeowner while robbing a house than they are of the police, it's documented fact.

"Odds are in his favor that-you WILL panic-and your unloaded with a safety clip on weapon is probably under your bed/in a closet/ or in your car!"

Do you have proof of this? You can't make a blanket statement like that and not back it up with something concrete. Just because that's what *you* would do, doesn't mean *everyone* else would. It's amazing how people with no practical firearm experience think they know better than those with enough experience to actually know better. "

" GiveMeLiberty
Yes there maybe a time or two that having a gun (handy) would aid-I have heard once or twice on the news that a gas station owner has prevailed with HIS gun.
BUT I don't think someone standing over you in the middle of the night is rare, criminals are more daring then ever before. With the summer months just ahead more burglaries will happen due to people leaving windows screened and unlocked.
Owning a gun will not deter them! "

" If the cops love Hunters (which I do too) then I AM SAFE since I dont live in Auburn I am not worried about where Auburn cops are>
However I do hope the one that lives 3 doors away from me is at home! It would make for a better response time, should I still be alive.

A robber is a robber--he does not care if you have a gun! If you have something he wants and HE has a gun--he is no where near afraid of you.

Odds are in his favor that-you WILL panic-and your unloaded with a safety clip on weapon is probably under your bed/in a closet/ or in your car! "

" did I hit a nerve quiver?
was it the word "crush"
--its not a 2 on 1 --its simple respect-something you seem to lack in your world.
NO where did I state I wanted guns taken away. I just don't happen to feel the need to own one-MY CHOICE!

The right to bear arms as FG stated was against the government, good luck with walking up to the white house with a gun, simply put, a suicide mission!

Many people HUNT, as do my inlaws, I have never said get rid of your guns. I have said be responsible especially when children are in your home! Yes I do watch the news and gun accidents happen ALOT, No different than pool drownings,or dog attacks: OWNERS need to be responsible!
I simply eliminate one responsibility from MY life by NOT OWNING A GUN!

"

" CM so your entire house is on fire, set by someone that is burglarizing your home, he knew you didn't have a gun, so he decided to cook your steak. Well did I mention he was cooking crack and blew up the house. My God, you called the cops, but they are busy and tonight. Hunter's is cooking Chili-size Burgers and ya know the cops LOVE them. Any ideas??? Who ya gonna call??? what makes you think a Burglar won't tie you up and terrorize you? Lieralism means STUPID, or that's ok you can have your way with me. "

" CM,

I agree with you that if you wake up with a gun in your face from some intruder, that's game over. Unless he screws up somehow and gives you an out or a chance to fight or escape, he would have total control of the situation.

You seem to be trying to make the case that this very specific, rare, and unlikely situation means that guns are useless. I think that is wrong. I don't see fire extinguishers as useless just because one day I might wake up to my entire house ablaze. Similarly I don't see firearms as useless for self defense simply because one night I might wake up with a knife at my throat.

I concede the point that there are many dangerous situations where a firearm is totally useless.

Will you concede that in certain situations a firearm is useful? "

" If my ENTIRE house is burning no extinguisher will help. In that case a money invested in home owners insurance would be more useful than a gun! "

" cm wrote on Apr 18, 2008 7:45 AM:
" quiver I see no reason in aggravating Karl when it comes to his personal JOB.
He has asked to keep it seperate from his opinions on this forum. One should respect that.
Many here know who he is and what he does, as well as most of Auburn, since the town is NOT that big.
I know a few that are fans too, but they are NOT being rude to his requests.
I have stated before it seems clear you have a "crush"-it would be easier and more respectful if you MAILED him a letter with your private email and IF he wants to talk SHOP with you he will contact you!
Your actions HERE will not get you into the "inner circle" of his personal life. "

How I do I aggravate about his personal job??? Where did I write about it? As for "crush"... You are an idiot!! I don't know what prescriptions you take, but you should find another doctor. Believe me (in)Competent Moron (CM) you should stick to your own issues. I don't like the 2 on 1 kind of fight, but if you want I can go a round or two with you. By the looks of your posting about the gun control issue, you are one of those scared liberal that thinks taking guns away from the LAW abiding citizen will include taking guns from criminals. Face it, there will always be weapons used by criminals. You are just so scared, you sit back in your easy chair gripping the armrests when you watch the world news. Take some LSD and open your mind, will ya? "

" CM,

You wake up at 3am and your entire house is on fire, what's the point of having a fire extinguisher?

Suddenly your car gets hit by a train, what's the point of having a seat belt?

See, it's easy to come up with absurd situations in which a gun or any piece of safety equipment will fail to help you. These absurd situations are by no means a reason to not have the option of using them in a situation where they would be helpful.

Some of you might like to check out www.a-human-right.com "

" 3 am the dogs didn't bark, for they were poisoned or fed a steak, intruder is standing over your bed with a gun to head--KING believes he still has time to grab gun !!!
As he's taped to a chair watching his wife/daughter get raped, he's still trying to figure out how to get his gun!

I'll rely on ADT. "

" KING you are the nutcase carrying a gun. Your arrogance because YOU carry is nothing more than a shield to cover YOUR fears! Carrying for you is nothing more than an EGO trip waiting for an accident to happen.
I hope it's not your spouse or child you kill dead in the night or maybe you sleep with night goggles on for your protection too.?!
I don't have a fear - I just don't have a need. I don't hunt, none of the guys in my immediate family hunt therefore we need no reason to own a gun.
I do have other family members that DO hunt. I don't slam them because of a sport they like to do, yet they don't feel the need to own a concealed weapon.

the truth is YOU wouldn't be shooting-you'd be running or hiding!
PS. I hope you never get the chance to find out! "

" Actually, the Founding Fathers did not have hunting in mind with the Second Amendment. The reason we have the right to own guns is specifically to overthrow our government if it becomes corrupt. (The "long string of usurpations," as in the Declaration of Independence?) It's the right to have a gun to protect yourself if the GOVERNMENT comes knocking down your door in the middle of the night to drag you away because they don't like your politics.

Of course, the only time I was awakened at 3AM was to find a stalker standing in my room watching me sleep. I didn't have a gun and he got threatening when I reached for the phone. For all that some people here have made fun of me for my verbosity, I saved my skin by TALKING the guy into leaving. (It took a few more years, but he was finally caught, he confessed, pleaded guilty and was convicted).

Football on turf or grass? Depends on the grass. I've played on good and on crummy grass fields, and I played on good turf (the new stuff) and terrible turf (It was a fluke astroturf injury that left me with 14 pieces of metal in my leg). Anyone who watched last season's Giants vs. Dolphins game in England could see that the short grass they use on a soccer pitch is utterly terrible for football -- slick and torn to heck within the first few plays. Pittsburgh also has a notoriously awful grass field. Nonetheless, I still hold that money from the community needs to go first to education before perks like sports fields. Even with a chunk of it picked up from a government grant, Auburn is not a financially flush community and the school should listen to the voters who made it clear they did not want turf. That's the "problem" with Democracy -- sometimes The People don't want the stuff you have planned. "By The People" at work.... "

" GiveMeLiberty, I think you may be incorrect with your statement of 100 million gun owners in the US...


It's more like 150 million, with an estimated 215+ million firearms privately owned, legally, that crimes are never committed with. But, statistics and facts don't hold water with some people, they think their opinions should trump the truth, and there is no way to convince them otherwise, so I stopped trying long ago. You can lead a horse to water, etc., etc., etc... "

" brew1234, The turf promoters are saying ALL sports to play on the field NOT just football. If I recall the latest was lacrosse whining they had to be bussed to Syracuse in the spring because the fields in Auburn were "muddy"
As I have stated before Turf is BS, it's USE is NOT intended for ALL. "

" its seems brew and cm are just fearful of guns and nothing will change their minds. its 3 am, my dogs bark i get my gun and fill the robber full of lead. end of story. no gun your dead. you guys are amateurs. "

" quiver I see no reason in aggravating Karl when it comes to his personal JOB.
He has asked to keep it seperate from his opinions on this forum. One should respect that.
Many here know who he is and what he does, as well as most of Auburn, since the town is NOT that big.
I know a few that are fans too, but they are NOT being rude to his requests.
I have stated before it seems clear you have a "crush"-it would be easier and more respectful if you MAILED him a letter with your private email and IF he wants to talk SHOP with you he will contact you!
Your actions HERE will not get you into the "inner circle" of his personal life. "

" theking,
its 3am, you wake up and see a gun pointed at your face..HOW do you reach for YOUR gun under the pillow?

I dont worry about NOT having guns-I have a security system instead, 3 very barking dogs!
Plus I have the reassurance that if my 2yr old grand-daughter happen to find my "security system" they won't kill her....then again they might "lick" her to death! "

" Baseball is better played on natural grass. Football is best on turf, bonehead. "

" Karl check out the Oliphant cartoon for 4/17 about the pope. "

" I'm going out to sign up for food stamps just so that obnoxious fool can pay for them. Then I'm going to buy a gun to protect me from maniacs like him. The king has left the building. I wish! "

" Karl:

what are the statistics on "responsible gun owners" committing crimes with their firearms. What I am asking is--how often is a firearm used in the comission of a crime when the firearm is legally owned by the perp? I think the numbers are lower than you'd believe. Gun control beyond a certain point is like the feds limiting the use of motor vehicles because a few people drink and drive, or use the automobile as a get away car for a robbery. I am all for the government knowing who is posessing firearms. I also believe that if someone is not sure if they will have the opportunity to walk out of my home while committing a crime against my family, will think twice before entering my home in the first place. Meaning, if anyone enters my home against my will, and intends to harm any family member of mine, he or she can expect to be shot DEAD. That is not a red neck speaking, it is a responsible law abiding gun owner. "

" CM - NO NO By the time YOU attempt to reach under YOUR seat for YOUR gun, the robber would shoot YOU! NOT ME
By the time YOU attempt to reach under YOUR bed for YOUR gun, the robber would shoot YOU! NOT ME - OH SORRY IM WRONG.. YOU WOULDN'T BE REACHING FOR ANYTHING SINCE YOU DONT SEE WHY YOU WOULD NEED A GUN. LETS JUST SEND AN INVITATION TO ALL CROOKS INTO OUR HOMES BECAUSE THEY WOULD KNOW THERES NO GUNS. BUT THERES STILL HOPE, I HEAR PILLOWS ARE QUITE LETHAL THESE DAYS.
"

" The sports section shows the picture of Union Springs girls softball game, the GRASS field looked great, for it being spring in NY. I see they were not bussed out of the area to play on TURF! "

" I see no purpose in having a gun unless you HUNT.
By the time you attempt to reach under your seat for your gun, the robber would shoot you!
By the time you attempt to reach under your bed for your gun, the robber would shoot you!
Your at work, a gunman comes in, your gun is in the car, thats helpful?!

Overall, other than a police officer who is trained to react quickly-
-would the average gun carrying person being shot at really attempt to get their gun or will they simply try to run away or hide? "

" Quiveringthigh, I have to say that it really is annoying how you like to drop names and "pose" like, "hey, man; I know these guys"--really already, will you grow up and have some respect? You live in California and here you are haunting this site like some giggly schoolgirl. How about you cut it with the name dropping already? It's so tawdry.


Karl with a K, I am sorry that I touched a nerve with you. I am not the only one from out of state that HAUNTS this board. Not posing, my friend! I think it really bothers you that I know who you are and what kind of jerk you really are. It's like I come here to ask a question, as I do on other boards that I frequent, and have no idea where they geographically are, but this one seems to upset people, like yourself. Why are so angry??? Do you not sleep well at night??
One reason I come here to the Citizen is to keep up on the gossip this town has. Mostly it seems everyone is either using, selling drugs and using the computer to indulge in their demented sexual pleasures. So, I check to see who I know and who lives there. Nothing personal Karl with a K, but I don't come here to argue. I know you get off on that.
Now excuse me while I go to a board where I can learn something. "

" thanks-Karl.
I agree that ANY form of child abuse should be handled in the legal courts.
I don't think it was the churches intention to cover up as the media portrays.
I feel they were trying to handle these and other issues as they came to light.
As well as keeping their initial vows/oaths, and Also within the bounds of "their government/their laws."
No different than lawyer/client privilege and doctor/patient rights.

I also disagree with abusers NOT talking until they are WAY over the age of 18. It sickens me to listen to "I was scared at age 20, age 30, age 40 but now that I am 50, so-n-so abused me." It makes me wonder if they are only jumping in on the MONEY band-wagon.

Something to know, each country has their own agreements with the Vatican.
Already in signed documents , if the country itself will handle the abusers or if the Vatican will. In the US, many states are now adding into law which course of action they will follow when it comes handling cases of religious sex-offenders.
Similar to our jurisdiction of legal courts and military courts.

Also the catholic religion is NOT the only religion that faces sex- offender issues:
Islam: Muslims convicted of sex offenses could opt out of treatment programs intended to stop them offending because open discussion of their crimes is against their religion.
Jewish: http://100777.com/node/463

the lists for every religion including Atheists are endless.



"

" With all these NRA nuts shouting around here, I can't hear a word Barack is saying....funny how one comment sets off the Pavlovian terror... "

" HEY KARL WHATS UP MAN YOUR SO SO SO SMART. YOU SEEM TO KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT EVERYTHING. JEEZ I REALLY HOPE THE DEMS GET ELECTED SO THEY CAN PASS SOME STRICT GUN LAWS. I JUST CAN'T WAIT FOR A ROBBER TO COME INTO MY HOUSE WITH AN ALREADY ILLEGAL FULLY AUTO RIFLE (THAT CRIMINALS WILL GET AHOLD OF NO MATTER HOW STRICT THE LAWS ARE) SO I CAN PROTECT MY FAMILY WITH MY SINGLE SHOT PEA SHOOTER. MAN YOUR SO SMART I GUESS THERES NOTHING WRONG WITH THE DEMS SOCIALIST AGENDA EITHER. I MEAN ITS ONLY THE NEXT STEP TOWARDS COMMUNISM. I JUST LOVE WORKING HARD SO I CAN PAY FOR EVERYONES FOOD STAMPS. "

" GiveMeLiberty, statistics don't impress me; sensible gun control does. Waiting periods and background checks might help screen out a criminal or a mental defective, or stop a person from purchasing and using a gun in anger. You never heard of an impulse killing? Passion Killing?
Anyway--I'm NOT a anti-gun nut. I hunt too, and own guns. But I don't like the NRA's policies--too radical for me. Any responsible measures to limit access to guns to even potentially dangerous people is opposed like it's the equivalent of taking away free speech. It's ridiculous. There has to be SOME sanity in the availability of firearms. And that's the LAST I'm going to address this, because we will never see eye-to-eye on this.
Quiveringthigh, I have to say that it really is annoying how you like to drop names and "pose" like, "hey, man; I know these guys"--really already, will you grow up and have some respect? You live in California and here you are haunting this site like some giggly schoolgirl. How about you cut it with the name dropping already? It's so tawdry.
Thank you Farmer's Gal.
cm-great post--but it sounds like to me that the Church was content to try to "keep it in the family" when they should have been making the public aware, and instead of just slapping these priests on the hand, giving them over to police. I still feel that if the scandal hadn't blown open with such fury, that things would still be business as usual. "

" I'm definitely not an NRA extremist, nor even a gun owner myself, but I have to agree with Chris on this one. QT has it right too, until the end -- Karl has asked us not to reference his professional life here on this forum -- why do you have to keep doing that? It's not really relevant in this discussion. "

" Well I am a NRA member, been one for a long time. I don't buy into evrything they say. I do, in fact believe in defending our 2nd as well as the entil Bill of Rights our country based it's belief on. I am not a ravaged gun maniac, but if I ever got the chance to catch a perpetrator in my house, you could bank that I would reach for a gun before the phone. I grew up around guns my whole life. At a very young age, my father taught me how to handle and respect them. He is more of a gun advocater than me, and he has never shot anyone. I love to hunt, there is more to it than taking an animal. Karl with a K, I'm sure Louie can give you some strong points and facts about our 2nd amendment. "

" "Karl, I am afraid that you are the one being emotional and not rational when it comes to the subject of gun control. You willfully ignore statistics because they don't make you "feel" safer?

Let me ask you this: (We don't have waiting periods in NYS, but) If I have 5 guns at home, what is the point of a waiting period when I buy number 6?

Can you cite any study where ANY form of gun control has reduced crime?

Would you like to directly refute any of the points Chris made, or are you content to just argue about your feelings?

I am not a member of the NRA, so how did I become "trained" to exhibit Pavlovian conditioning except by careful study of the facts?

PS. Using the word "clips" makes you sound ignorant.

Chris: 99% is actually too low of a number. There are 100 Million gun owners in the USA, and only 10,000 homicides per year involving guns, so quite literally, 99.999% of gun owners
don't commit gun crimes." "

" 1. Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith/ the modern name for the Office of The holy Inquisition=Similar to our supreme court

2. Code of Canon Law=Similar to our constitution

3. Crimen Sollicitationis/Initial vow dated from 1867 with amendments added thru the years concerning policy and procedures=Similar to our constitutional rights/keeping the original rights yet adding amendments.

4. The 1962 amendment of policy and procedures, added Bishops MUST report within 30 days any acts of Accused/Knowing sexual abuse, which was NOT stated in the original revised amendments.
A. Examples of Priests reassigned to another parish were after treatment. psychological treatment began in the 1970's. Bishops were acting on the best medical advice then available. The practice was to seek the analysis of psychiatrists, clinicians, and therapists in residential treatment centers before deciding whether a priest accused of sexually abusing a child should be returned to the pulpit.
B. Pope Paul VI in 1967, issued a warning to the Catholic faithful concerning the negative consequences of the sexual revolution. The pope's letter, "On the Celibacy of the Priests," affirming celibacy, he called on bishops to take responsibility for "fellow priests troubled by difficulties which greatly endanger the divine gift they have." He advised the bishops to seek appropriate help for these priests, or, in grave cases, to seek a dispensation for priests who could not be helped. In addition, he urged them to be more prudent in judging the fitness of candidates for the priesthood.
C. In 1975, the Church issued another document called "Declaration on Certain Questions Concerning Sexual Ethics" (written by Joseph Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger) that explicitly addressed, among other issues, the problem of homosexuality among priests.

5. Cardinal Ratzinger, presently Pope Benedict XIV, had been the prefect, or head, The Holy Inquisition in 1981-1982, then Dean of College of Cardinals-until elected POPE. The Dean has no power of governance.
A. A total of 10,667 people accused priests of child sexual abuse from 1950 through 2002.
B. Code of Canon Law revised in 1983, an important passage was added: "The cleric who commits any other offense against the sixth precept of the Decalogue, if the offense was committed with violence or threats, or publicly or with a minor who is under 16 years must be punished with just punishments, not excluding expulsion from the clerical state."
C. In 1994, the Ad Hoc Committee on Sexual Abuse issued guidelines to the nation's then 191 dioceses to help them develop policies to deal with the problem of sexual abuse of minors. By this time, pedophilia was recognized as a disorder that could not be cured.
D. Before 1994, bishops took their cue from experts in the psychiatric profession who believed pedophilia could be successfully treated. Priests guilty of sexual abuse were sent to one of several treatment facilities across the United States. Bishops often relied upon the judgments of experts in determining whether priests were fit for ministry.
D. 2001, Ratzinger extended the 1983 CODE to 18 years old for children abused.
E. December 2004, Ratzinger reopened a Vatican investigation into longstanding allegations against Father Maciel. May 2006, Pope Benedict XVI ordered 86-year-old Father Marcial to give up his ministry and retire to a life of "prayer and repentance." Escaping a full trial in an ecclesiastical court because of his age and frail health.
This statement noted that the sanctions had been personally endorsed by the Pope (Ratzinger). This was a clear departure from the policy of Benedict's predecessor, John Paul II, and appeared to be a first step toward fulfilling the new pontiff's vow to sweep "filth" from the church.

In response to the recent scandals, some dioceses are setting up special commissions on child abuse, as well as victims' advocacy groups; and they are officially acknowledging that any legitimate allegation of abuse must be dealt with immediately.
"

" Chris, put in a fresh pair of panties.
Your emotional reaction to my post is a prime example of the Pavlovian response that is typical of the NRA extremist who has been trained and brainwashed into believing that ANY waiting periods, restrictions on sales or ownership, background checks or anything whatsoever that tries to limit gun access to potential mass murderers and criminals is somehow anti-American or a symbol of the coming apocalypse.
Remember Chris--a "responsible Citizen" is just that until he takes a semi-auto and walks onto a campus somewhere and kills 32 or maybe 52 people in the time it takes to reload a clip or two.
Sheesh. I've heard all these NRA "facts" and arguments and statistics, and it still doesn't change the fact that there are to many damned guns on the streets the way it is. It doesn't make ME feel any more secure to spout these like some mantra that will protect you as long as you recite them every time a gun control issue comes up. "

" Karl, we have plenty of reasonable gun laws already on the books. 99% of legal gun owners are responsible individuals. Look at what happened in Mass. and in Washington DC and thier gun bans-crime is way up when crooks don't have to fear being shot. Karl, a little hint: Criminals aren't going to follow the law, they aren't going to register their weapons so taking away rights from responsible citizens is just plain silly. "

" Hmm, I missed something there -- in what way am I "hateful," as rd writes? Seems to me I just wrote in urging more tolerance of various religious faiths, and rd is accusing me of ignorance and hatefulness. That's a non sequitur there, rd. You seem to be suffering a touch of hatefulness towards me personally. "

" quiveringthigh--I can only guarantee you this--if Barack has even so much as SUGGESTED that we should have SENSIBLE gun control, he will get branded with some hyped-up, ridiculous charge of "not supporting the 2nd Amendment"--patently ridiculous fear-mongering by the rabid gun nuts within the NRA. Don't believe a single word of it. "

" cm, a very informative and enlightening post--my hat's off to you, and I stand technically corrected in a sense--in that Ratzinger was not SOLELY responsible.
He did however share culpability with--surprise--Pope John Paul--the man who ascended the papacy after the murder of John Paul I. (BTW, anyone wanna crack that Pandora's box open? Read the book "In God's Name" by David Yallop!)
cm, I'm baffled by what you mean that I'm reading the code wrong? Do you mean I'm TOO cynical to believe that this policy was written with FULL KNOWLEDGE of the extent of the problem within the Church, and yet Ratzignger and JPII set this code into Church without making the problem a priority issue? Without writing in a means of turning these pedophiles over to law enforcement? Can you EVER remember of hearing of even ONE priest being surrendered willingly by the Church to Law Enforcement for proper punishment???! NOT ME!?
I don't see how anyone can look at the whole mess and not see that, at any time, Ratzinger--as a close confidante of JPII, and one of his top-level ministers--could have urged for a change in policy and lobbied for a more public disclosure of the plague within the Church.
The bottom line, in my admittedly cynical mind, was that the Church was more concerned with "The Church" than the children.
If it was revised in '17, '62, '83, and again in 1990, it was obviously NOT immutable--and it shouldn't have been in place at all when the scope of the problem was evident to all.
It still appears to me that when looking at your post there, one could still very easily find Ratzinger fully culpable--along with JPII.
Unless of course you want to extend the full benefit of the doubt to them that they just weren't the aware of the problem--unimaginable, IMO. "

" KARL, as usual, you are reading the CODE wrong!
Crimen sollicitationis (Latin for "the crime of soliciting") was a letter sent in 1962 by Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviani to Pope John XXIII, for the Pope’s approval.
It laid down rules for procedures to be taken against clerics, priests, or bishops, ACCUSED of sexual advances. In it, it named the Codes of Canon Laws, the beginnings of rules for priests.

Code of Canon Law
February 1867, by Instruction of the Holy Office, vows taken,
STATING:
each and every person who in any way belongs to the tribunal or is given knowledge of the matter is obliged to keep inviolate the strictest secrecy (what is commonly called "the secrecy of the Holy Office")
An oath of secrecy was to be taken not only by the members of the tribunal but also by the person or persons denouncing the priest, by the witnesses, and by the accused priest himself, who was free to discuss the matter only with his defence counsel.
REVISED in 1917, in 1962, again in 1983, and again in 1990.

Crimen Sollicitationis remained in effect until 2001 when the Vatican published a new set of procedures, Two official documents were issued.
One of Pope John Paul II, another signed by Cardinal Ratzinger. Yet, the procedures themselves had to be approved BY the Pope.

The purpose of the document was to indicate how to carry out a canonical investigation into accusations.
It described the procedures to be followed in each phase: reception of a denunciation; the course of the investigation, summoning the accused, sentencing, and the possibility of appeal. Do to the subject of these cases, it is processed with maximum confidentiality and remains always secret .
The trials are conducted with all due secrecy, as originally in Codes of Canon Law 1867.

Protection of all involved, the accused, the victim/denouncer and the witnesses, before the verdict was passed: "It allows witnesses to speak freely, accused priests to protect their good name until guilt is established, and victims to come forward who don’t want publicity.

A. POSITIVE intentions were to protect the sacraments of penance, safeguard of the confessional seal and to prevent false accusations.
B. NOT intended for a cover-up but mandating they were continuing to enforce a church policy of secrecy.




"

" Karl with a K said some nice things about Pit Bulls! But he loves to talk about 2 things that you shouldn't talk about.... Religion and politics. Those 2 topics start wars. Oh, BTW I received a call from the NRA, stating that Barack Obama is not in favor of preserving our second amendment. That definitely is wrong. Does anyone have firm proof of that?? I would like to know. "

" On 4/11/08, George Bush told ABC News he personally approved of the approval of torture - including waterboarding - by Dick Cheney, Condoleeza Rice, Donald Rumsfeld, Colin Powell and George Tenet.

Bush said, "Yes, I'm aware our national security team met on this issue. And I approved."

You would think a President confessing to war crimes would be on the front pages of all the nation's newspapers, and all over their editorial pages - not just on Countdown and The Daily Show.

Borrowed from Democrats.com

NOTE: It listed 4 modest sized newspapers as carrying a front page story on it.

Anyone see the story ANYWHERE in the Citizen?

A very interesting thing this meeting with the Pope, and ex Nazi standing with the POTUS, a self-confessed enabler of torture, George Bush. How fitting. "

" One thing that I would like to see is a city cop pass by the playgrounds in the late afternoons. I like to go to various playgrounds with my kid, and there has been many a time when we have left when a large group of teenagers enter the park. The majority swear and hollar at eachother. Some even start fighting and banging on the playgound. Maybe a few passes by with a cop car and it would calm down a little. "

" Hey pentangelli, why dont u tell us what it was like in 1950 - I wasnt around that FAR back - lol...And to ANGMOM3, no I have not had any internet probs since I was switched to Verison DSL a few years back. Cable and dial up are the worst! I HAVE to have instant response time for my work here. And YES !! what a great day - actually felt warm doing some yard work - and now feeling the pain lol...enjoy the spring as it will pass in a heartbeat. Trees are budding and leaves will be here soon - ya!!! Two colors Auburn is known for white (6 months winter)and green(6 months no snow)... "

" movedsouth--Ricky Carmichael--the Greatest Motocrosser of All Time--is now racing Nascar in a minor series, getting ready to kick some redneck butt--I might actually watch one of those turn-left-only races? "

" rd, please explain how SPEAKING THE TRUTH qualifies as "hate speech" in your world?
The comment I posted is factual and true--Ratzinger was responsible for setting Church policy for cris'sake! HE IS THE MAN RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ABUSE COVER-UPS!
This is the truth--research it yourself! HE SET CHURCH POLICY!
YOu want to pretend he didn't know?
And now people are holding him up as some sort of respectable figure and lionizing him as some model of piety and holiness?!?! Give me a break!
I'm simply pointed out the painful truth. If you can't handle that, you should better educate yourself of the facts! "

" I have a hard time with the way the pope is treated. He is a human being who was elected to a position by other human beings. He is no holier than me as far as I'm concerned. People crawl to his feet to kiss them--sickening. "

" Let's see, does anyone remember any positive post by Karl? I just wonder if he posts to start problems. Karl, other than motox, do you have anything positive to say. Come down South and spew your hatred for our country at a NASCAR race. See what happens! "

" Karl L once again has demonstrated his total lack of tolerance by attacking the Pope and the Catholic Church. His hate speach and attitude towards other peoples faith is reminescent of Don Imus attacks which resulted in his condemation and job termination. I wish it was as easy to shut up ignorant opinions and hateful attitudes by the likes of Karl and the Farmer Gal. "

" YOU FORGOT AN ITEM...THERE ARE FIVE THINGS AUBURN (in 2008) IS KNOWN FOR. NUMBER FIVE IS WHINNING FOLKS THAT THINK IT IS STILL 1950... "

" Hello everyone.

Is it just me, or is the Internet rather slow today? Both my work and home computers seem to be taking forever. Perhaps I have become too accustomed to "instant gratification" in this area.

Isn't the weather perfect today? What a gift for all of us CNYers. Last year on this day, we had a snow storm.

good wishes to all. "

" I dunno, Karl, I've got zero interest in following the Pope's escapades in America.

Farmer Guy is Catholic, but not the church-going-Pope-following kind. He used to be a regular church-goer and attended Mt. Carmel and St. Bonny's by choice. But some years ago a change in his work schedule/home life made it impossible and now he doesn't worry about it. His faith is strong, and he is a good, generous, hard-working, honest person. His faith is in his heart and doesn't have to be demonstrated in formal public rituals. It sure beats some other Catholics we know who go to church regularly while treating others shabbily (and worse!) who think that the outward show makes them better people than Farmer Guy.

If there is a God, surely he cares more about what's in the person's heart and how he behaves towards others than if he eats fish or meat on Friday or shows up every week for confession like clockwork.

Likewise with Pope Followers. What really matters is what kind of person you are and how you treat others, Catholic or Jewish or Muslim or Buddhist or Atheist. I'm not any religion, but I can live with respect for someone else's faith if they have it right in their hearts. "

" Did you all see the idiots screaming for the Pope as he drove down the street in his bulletproof Popemobile?
Cheering for the guy who was chiefly responsible for setting up the Doctrine of Obfuscation which reassigned and hid the Church's child molesters when he head of what was the Vatican's chief policy center--the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. This is, of course, the modern name for the Office of The holy Inquisition--no lie, look it up.
It begs the question if Catholics know anything about their faith at all?!
Sickening, and funny if it weren't so disgusting! "

" Dan, I might be in that 4.2% of smokers, But tis you that are in the 4.2% of idiots! "

" Justventing. I went to PBCS in the late 70's. The 18 yr olds was promised pizza to register to vote on the up coming school budget. Would 10 year olds care about property tax increases? Dose this still take place in Schools today? Oh yes it dose. I've seen sudents next to the driveway in the USCD. With signs to vote yes for the budget. I'm sure its a "civics" lesson from a teacher.

If you really want to wonder what the???? Ask your grand child in 5 th grade. What they are learning about "ethics" in school. It has nothing about ethics. Its sending change to a poor country's 5 th grade class. Thats compassion, its something a church group would do "

" If 4.2% more people are smoking from 2004 to 2006. I would say idiots have increased by the same precentage. "

" That was the censors, Karl "

" Are you talking about an email account Karl? My service has been working all day. My mail program downloads my email periodically and I've not had problems with that. "

" Nope, I use Verizon DSL...much faster and more reliable than cable... "

" Anyone else have problems logging in to their Roadrunner Online service this afternoon?
Mine was down from like, 1:00 til at least 5:00. "

" PLEASE vote no for the upcoming school budget. Every year our taxes go up because of the people who vote yes. For once vote NO and let’s see what the school board can really do. It's really is your choice whether to pay more in taxes or not. PLEASE, I just can't take any more increases. "