" hillbilly, I have NO PROBLEM at all, whatsoever, with being branded a "traitor", an "anarchist". an "America Hater" or anything else you want to stick on me if that means that I actively, deeply, passionately and absolutely and forever oppose this war, the lies that started it, the money that has been wasted on it, the lives that have been lost in it, or the bastards who should be tried, convicted, and hung like potato sacks for it. "

" You still JUST DON'T GET IT!

Unbelievable. "

" AJ and Karl here is a quote for you can you guess who said it?

"I blamed Congress for having plunged the people into a long and expensive war"

Nope it was not Obama. But, it does sound like something he would say. Being that he didn't vote for this war and all. Not to mention something you two would say too. How much the Iraq war cost and all.

It was none other that the Great American Traitor Benedict Arnold. "

" By the way AJ (or anyone else who wishes) if you would like to read George Washington's entire address you can find it at the following. I'm still looking for the entire Speech by MacArthur on May 15,52 before I will make any comment, does anyone know where I can find it?

http://www.earlyamerica.com/earlyamerica/milestones/farewell/text.html "

" AJ I found what you quote. It's part of George Washington's Farewell Address to the Nation. And do you know there are 51 Chapters to the Address? While reading it I find the part that you quote to be interesting. Considering that George is addressing a very young US, I see the quote and the rest of that Chapter and previous Chapters, referring to the Union. Hoping that it will stay strong. He talks to different parts of the nation, then 13 states, and gives advise that they are stronger together than apart and that any state that should seek the "opposite foreign alliances, attachments, and intrigues would stimulate and embitter" (I assume the other states). And this is why it would be wise to "avoid the necessity of those overgrown military establishments (another counrty's military), which, under any form of government(Dictators, Communists or say Muslim Terrorist), are inauspicious to liberty, and which are to be regarded as particularly hostile to Republican Liberty (this would be us)." The speech continues to say "In this sense it is, that your Union ought to be considered as a main prop of your liberty, and that the love of the one (being the Union) ought to endear to you the preservation of the other (our Liberty). So yes, I will fight the terrorist no matter where it takes us or for how long. So you and Karl can go back to your Girlly-Man lives and continue to spout Liberal crap while a Republican/Conservative defends your freedom of speech keeping it safe for you to use.

And here are a couple of other things I do not understand. Why do Blacks go to the Democrats? It was a republican president who freed them. And the KKK was a left-over from south after the Civil war where the State governments were then mostly Democratic run. Ask Senator Bird he was a KKK. Those same Democratic southern governments oppressed the backs for years. And today the Blacks figure more prominently in the Democratic party. Why? Check the History channel, you will learn more than just Stupid Liberal ideology. "

" I was well aware of your sarcasm CVC. I was responding to your implied message. GET IT? "

" AJ, reading comprehension my friend isn't one of your strong points. What I posted was a sarcastic, liberal point of view piece. This is what I think part of your thought processes are... "

" Karl, do you think his Kool-Aid is wearing off? "

" Chris, thank you for stating the obvious, and with such eloquence!
There's hope for you yet, Chris! LOL! "

" The Weekly Standard? The neocon rag? You are joking, right CVC?

You're not only delusional, you're insane.

You're so far to the right you need a kickstand blah blah blah. Now, where did I hear that idiotic quip anyhow..

Your prefered sources have time and time again been proven wrong and to be pathological liars. And all one has to do is look at their owners to know how extremely prejudiced and compromised they are to deem them extremely unreliable. But guess what CVC, those "liberal" sources you mention, are compromised too. Just not nearly as much.

But I won't go into that any further since you do not understand nuance anyhow and I'd be wasting my time. "

" Hey HB, come on now-all of AJ and Karl's sources are above reproach. When your opponent presents you with those pesky facts, there's only one way to beat him -- attack the source. Refuse to give credence to anything reported by the Weekly Standard, or God forbid: Fox News, even if your opponent's facts come from another source as well. Any news outlet even slightly to the right of the New York Times, the LA Times, CBS, ABC, NPR and Time is immediately suspect. Put down FOX news channel and anyone that refers to it -- ignore the fact that they have reported the same stories as every other network. The fact that your opponent uses any of those obviously biased sources automatically proves him wrong, a brainwashed tool, a sheep, etc If he gives you information from a web site, attack that site as being biased, or right-wing. If he attacks your sources as being left-wing, scoff at that argument -- you know that "left wing" and "correct" are the same thing. Quotes from any liberal source (even a non-journalist's web page or blog) are automatically correct, while any conservative source is OBVIOUSLY distorting the facts to make an ideological point.
"

" Not trying to spin anything HB. In fact, I have on several occasions provided a link to the video of his entire speech.

And that was not a NEWS article, it was commentary laced with fact.

I know that Faux news watchers can't tell the difference. "

" Look, hillbilly, I know your're not the sharpest knife in the drawer. I gave you the link to the source of the article. That should have been enough.

If you wanted to take it a step further to verify it, and you had trouble finding it using the entire quote, you should know that that can limit the search results significantly, especially a long quote such as that, due to formatting differences.

In the case of that particular search, you added the attribution which was likely to have been reconstructed enough to cause the problem.

Or you should also know that not everything gets indexed either. Here is a hint - try narrowing the search term, to say, like "inauspicious to liberty". As that phrase has never been used too much by most people, that should hit your target pretty well. "

" You both missed the point entirely, which is not exactly surprising.

How can you be so DENSE? "

" AJ, when I punch this into Google search I get this? I am puzzled now. I would assume something is not right or it must be out of contents and changed as Eisenhower was????

Your search - "Over-grown military establishments are under any form of government inauspicious to liberty, and are to be regarded as particularly hostile to republican liberty." --George Washington (1732-1799), 1st US President - did not match any documents.
"

" AJ I thought I would add to Eisenhower's farewell address what you left out and the comments after the article. You can find the whole address at http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/ike.htm
After reading the "Whole Address" I see how your "NEWS Article" likes to skew the view. So who's spinning now? I will check the other two comments too and post what I find.

Taken from Eisenhower's last address to the nation as President.

"A vital element in keeping the peace is our military establishment. Our arms must be mighty, ready for instant action, so that no potential aggressor may be tempted to risk his own destruction.

Our military organization today bears little relation to that known by any of my predecessors in peacetime, or indeed by the fighting men of World War II or Korea.

Until the latest of our world conflicts, the United States had no armaments industry. American makers of plowshares could, with time and as required, make swords as well. But now we can no longer risk emergency improvisation of national defense; we have been compelled to create a permanent armaments industry of vast proportions. Added to this, three and a half million men and women are directly engaged in the defense establishment. We annually spend on military security more than the net income of all United States corporations.
American makers of plowshares could, with time and as required, make swords as well. But now we can no longer risk emergency improvisation of national defense; we have been compelled to create a permanent armaments industry of vast proportions.

This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence – economic, political, even spiritual – is felt in every city, every Statehouse, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society.

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.

So was Ike a 60s leftist like Oliver Stone? Note some key elements of Ike's thinking:

* Eisenhower didn't believe the Military Industrial Complex was to blame for the Cold War. He laid the blame on communism: "a hostile ideology global in scope, atheistic in character, ruthless in purpose, and insidious in method."
* Eisenhower felt the Military Industrial Complex was necessary.
* Eisenhower felt the influence of the Military Industrial Complex might be "sought or unsought." For 60s leftists, "unsought" power for the Military Industrial Complex was inconceivable.
* A principled Republican, Ike was also skeptical of agricultural and research programs fostered by the federal government. He did not consider military industrial interests uniquely insidious, but rather he distrusted government expansion generally. "

" Oh AJ, always the chicken little. Did you buy your Al Gore (tm) Carbon Credits yet?
The military/industrial complex doesn't run the show no matter how breathlessly you whine and emote. We do need a strong weapons manufacturing base due to the need for a modern, capable fighting force.
So, anyone who sells to the military or provides services either here or abroad is a war profiteer? "

" "Over-grown military establishments are under any form of government inauspicious to liberty, and are to be regarded as particularly hostile to republican liberty." --George Washington (1732-1799), 1st US President

"[The] conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. . . . In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist." --Dwight D. Eisenhower (1890-1969), 34th US President, Farewell Address, Jan. 17, 1961

"It is part of the general pattern of misguided policy that our country is now geared to an arms economy which was bred in an artificially induced psychosis of war hysteria and nurtured upon an incessant propaganda of fear." --General Douglas MacArthur, Speech, May 15, 1951

These quotes (from people most would hardly consider "liberal", except perhaps by fanatical neocons) precede an excellent article about the military industrial complex which can be found here:

http://www.onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_1241.shtml "

" Whoops, I should have known. The Pelosi thing is an April Fool's joke.

Sorry.

"

" DD, c'mon, are you serious?!
Faux News has a well-known and well-reported history of making up surveys, facts, institutions, etc, all to try to confer legitimacy to their spin.
As such, we do NOT get our news from the "same media". Ours is truthful. yours "spins" news.
DIG?! "

" Somehow I missed this today.

Pelosi will no longer allow votes to be brought up for continued funding of the war!!! AND, it looks like impeachment will be on the table after all (assuming certain conditions are not met).

Better late than never!

Let me guess DD, this is why you are calling Pelosi a traitor? Please do explain yourself. "

" Karl, I've heard lawyers comment on how complicated and difficult to comprehend some of those contracts are/were.

Did you read the WaPo letter Spitzer wrote? Pretty damning stuff. (which is why I tend to think he was targeted for prosecution). Too bad he had to have been hoisted on his own petard, so to speak. "

" Aj, keep your blinders on, one opinion news. Maybe it's not a hate group, you just ill on others!!!!!! "

" Any form of propaganda, if it is to be successful, needs to contain at least an element of truth. Much of what the corporate media reports is in fact true, but it typically lacks context, or background information.

Much of what they report is also BS, direct from the administration, and unchallenged. Part of the key is being alert to these facts as well as knowing a fair bit of history. After a while you can see right through it.

Bernays wrote the book on it, so you might want to check his work out. The "system" is simply playing by his book.

As for Pelosi, I agree she's a traitor, for not pursuing impeachment of the most corrupt leaders in modern history, that have taken us into an illegal and morally bankrupt war, and have been bent on destroying our constitution. "

" Oh yea--also, you can never trust a guy with two first names can you? "

" Karl, and AJ: How is it that you poke fun of any conservative for believing the media when you ascertain any and all of your information from the same sources? You could be just as wrong as anyone else. Now on to my other points: Pelosi is a traitor, and how the hell can you blame anyone other than unscrupulous lenders for the downturn in the market? "

" I don't belong to any hate groups, but I do despise those who are willfully ignorant. You obviously have no clue as to how you and others like you have been manipulated by the corporate media, through outright lies and lies of omission, even though for months others have tried to point this out to you. You still don't get it, and at this point you likely never will. I'm not going to waste any more time on you. "

" AJ, borders on intelligent? If you think one person's opinion is more accurate than all national news, then you are a really strange radical. There is no reasoning with people like you, you cannot entertain thoughts other than your own. I can see you belonging to some form of hate group. Care to wish a catastrophe on me? AA, a form of reparations, give me a break. "

" This should put to rest any notion that our insane military spending is justified:

http://www.nationalpriorities.org/world_military_spending "

" Obviously this cannot possibly convey the human costs, but putting the economic costs in some perspective may convince some of the few remaining war/occupation supporters of the madness of it all.

Taxpayers in Congressional District 24 (Arcuri) have paid $1.3 billion for the Iraq War thus far. For the same amount of money, the following could have been provided:

237,084 People with Health Care OR
2,406,922 Homes with Renewable Electricity OR
24,813 Public Safety Officers OR
19,579 Music and Arts Teachers OR
209,792 Scholarships for University Students OR
68 New Elementary Schools OR
7,308 Affordable Housing Units OR
449,250 Children with Health Care OR
146,474 Head Start Places for Children OR
14,890 Elementary School Teachers OR
19,322 Port Container Inspectors

SOURCE:

http://www.nationalpriorities.org "

" Who said anything about a conspiracy in this thread?

BTW, FYI, Halliburton was a division or subsidiary of KBR, until fairly recently.

Nice that we can finally agree on something - that industry has no business handling things the military itself can do just fine. "

" Hillbilly, you're just another dolt. You should run back up into your hills.

Where did I ever say we bombed Peal Harbor? I don't think I've ever broached that subject here. But since you brought it up, it is pretty well known that our gov't knew it was going to happen before it did.

Movedsouth, that is the closest thing that you've ever said that borders on intelligent, sort of. "

" Sigh....Chris, you and I shall never probably agree on anything other than the Right to View Pornography.
Perhaps we shall one day shake hands on the front lines as Soldiers for Smut...LOL!
Chris, I don't want an "I told you so moment"--I'm not in this argument for the sake of "Pride".
What I want is to bring home the billions and billions of wasted dollars being practically given away to profiteering scumbags like Halliburton and Cheney's other cronies like Blackwater--unaccountable bullies and thugs, criminals who besmirch the honor and reputation of our country, to be used HERE, building schools, bridges, new housing for the poor. I want the liars who started this war for their own purposes and personal gains to be called to account; to be prosecuted as the murderers they are.
I want the biys over there--MANY of them my personal friends--to come home in one piece, not in states of PTS, not committing suicide, or with legs and arms missing, fighting so some fatcat Texan scumbag in a fancy suit and several deferments can make another billion or two off the oil--which belongs to the Iraqi people!
Yes, this is an emotional response--the same as a Jewish person would feel about Nazi concentration camp guards being allowed to live free and profit in the world. This is an injustice, pure and simple.
I'm disturbed that you think nation-building is necessary--first of all, BUSH HIMSELF said that that's not what we were there for--now he's moved the goalposts. It just proves all along that he was lying.
Furthermore, we have the world's LARGEST embassy and super-complex over there to allow us to maintain and dominate the country for decades--the same as the British tried to do in Indochina and the Middle East before us. In fact, British attempts to control the oil in that region are what led to the whole Shah of Iran issue and the partition of the Middle East,--which in itself caused the "Palestine Problem". There's just NO GOOD END to meddling over there with a culture and society that does not WANT democracy! We will go broke as a nation, and be disgraced and humiliated as a country just as the Brits were--mark my words. The ONLY questions are, how long will it take, and how much will it cost our children? It's so disgraceful it's practically immoral.
BTW, both you and hillbilly might want to really avail yourself of the research available on the REAL REASONS for the mortgage crisis, with regard to people's borrowing.
MSNBC reports at http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20725063/ that "an investigation announced Tuesday by the Federal Trade Commission, which has sent warning letters to more than 200 mortgage brokers, lenders and media outlets warning about “potentially deceptive” mortgage advertisements that may withhold information buyers need to understand the true cost of their home loans.

"Many mortgage advertisers are making potentially deceptive claims about incredibly low rates and payments, without telling consumers the whole story," said Lydia Parnes, director of the FTC's Bureau of Consumer Protection. "
...and said that "“It absolutely is the responsibility of the lender to explain all the terms and conditions including the cost of the loan per month when the loan resets,” said David Berg, a Houston attorney involved in mortgage fraud cases. “From the evidence that we’ve gathered, it was rarely made clear.”
Look, I know it fits your MO to blame the "dumb person" but sorry, it just isn;t true. In fact, evidence to the contrary is all over the news. I suppose it makes you feel superior and good about yourself to hold your head up high and trumpet "hey man! I didn't get taken", but perhaps you were just lucky? In any case, it's typical for you to have no sympathy for the average person--could be your mom and dad, or your niece or nephew even--who get swindled by a deceitful loaner. There are reasons, you know, why there is a "Truth in Lending" law--it wouldn't exist if there hadn't been a need to regulate and oversee it in the first place. "

" AJ, good Lord...KBR (not Halliburton) is poisoning the troops? What nonsense. It wasn't the drinking water, it was water for personal hygiene and laundry use at five U.S. military sites in Iraq. Somebody dropped the ball and should be fired, its as simple as that. And in my opinion, the Army should be doing the water purification itself.
Not everything is a conspiricy theory. This wouldn't happen if Walmart were over in Iraq...ooops I forgot that Walmart is an eeevil corporation, just like Halliburton. "

" AJ, let's see, information clearinghouse is ONE PERSON'S EFFORT TO CORRECT THE DISTORTED PERCEPTIONS PROVIDED BY COMMERCIAL MEDIA. Wow, put that together with Youtube, and I think YOU have some real reliable info. "

" And this video...

http://informationclearinghouse.info/article15320.htm "

" This seems to be a fitting contribution to this thread.

And maybe CVC can explain to us why the "liberal" media hasn't covered this.

Video at:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article19645.htm

courtesy of your friends at Halliburton "

" Chris Van, I agree with you and I don't give a rat's *** what Crazy Karl and AJ jerk have to say. Point being, Karl ask about knowing history? Yes, what about WWII. You know where there were Germanic Tribes, then the real Fascism (Nazis) becoming a democracy, because it was forced onto them. Those countries are older than dirt too. But wait, AJ would say we bombed Peril Harbor ourselves and the Jap's had nothing to do with it. As for this war. The one with Iraq is won, the one against Terrorist will take longer to finish. But, if the American people feel safe then vote Liberal and when terrorist start hitting us here in the US we will know who to thank. Yes Chris I love my country and I believe ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS should go home, legal immigrants, like the ones Karl described, are welcomed. Or did I get that one wrong in history too Karl? As far as poles that Karl and AJ might quote, well everyone knows that poles can be skewed simply by the questions asked or even who is asked. If I should ask 100 Liberals how the war in Iraq is going then I will have a 100% negative response. Then I laugh at the "Clan" or that "Conservative ideas appeal to the more primal, basal nature of Humankind. Conservative values emphasize the more primitive, animal nature of Human Nature; the selfishness of Man, the "Strong Survives" mentality, the Fear of Outsiders--all the most primitive survival instincts that make men more like animals." That's because conservatives are all miss guided, we should be more "Girlly-manish". We should look to the government to solve all the problems, you know like the Soviet Union did. Opps, they collapsed didn't they? Karl help me with history here. Yes I love my country with all the freedoms we have, to include religion or lack if you wish. How barbaric choice can be. Liberals know that if you have a choice you might choose wrong, then everything will just be chaos. Like the housing mess. How dare those people take loans that they would be stupid to take because they could never afford them when the rates go up, how dare they. Where was the government to protect them? The government, Liberal version, would have told the poor "your to poor and stupid to know that you can't afford to take this loan. You know, protect us at all cost, because we're too animalistic. So Chris, from a deluded person, please keep writing because this is a free country and I like seeing how Karl and AJ and the rest of the gang respond. But, these are just my opinions. Karl and AJ, please keep posting too, I do get a laugh from some of your comments and every so often I even agree. "

" Like I said, CVN. Dolt. "

" AJ: I'd like to think you were joking about your source, Afterdowningstreet leans so far left it requires a kickstand so it won't fall over.
Karl: Contrary to your emotional response, the war is not lost. I know you want a "we told you so" moment, but I don't think you'll get it. I'm not necessarily a big fan of nation building, but sometimes its required. Look at Germany and Japan now and what we did with our "Marshall Plans" for both countries. We beat them soundly and helped them rebuild into robust democracies with mostly thriving economies. The same thing can and hopefully will happen in Iraq.
You bring up that "liberals" founded this country and I counter that the moderns liberals are at the other end of the spectrum from the "classical liberals". "Classical Liberals" called for individual freedom and limited government. Including the importance of human rationality, individual property rights, natural rights, the protection of civil liberties, constitutional limitations of government, free markets, and individual freedom from restraint. What do modern liberals want? More government intervention i.e. welfare or a form of state run socialism, nationalization of utilities, the undermining of self-responsibility just to name a few...
For example, I think there should be a free market solution to health care to make it more affordable for everyone not a government one. With regard to the mortgage problem and with people who bought houses they knew they couldn't afford-suck it up.
Iraq could very well be the example for a middle east democracy, it has to start somewhere besides Turkey.
Karl, if your ideas about the government causing 9/11, chemical contrails, black helicopters, etc...are part of what you call the "reality based" community, I think I'll stay put. "

" This made my day.

http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/32339#comments

BTW, CVN, you should know better than to rely on government statistics. Secondly, it apparently matters nothing to you the enormous costs in lives, to the environment (DU, especially), and staggering economic costs. Says a lot about you, Chris. Thirdly, what does it say to you that more than 80% of Iraqis want us out NOW? Dolt.
"

" Jeezus, Chris; you've really bought the lie hook, line, and sinker, haven't you?
The "progress" you've cited there is a bunch of neocon illusory talking points and fodder for euphemistic diversion.
The "Re-Baathification" of Iraq effectively undoes what we allegedly went in there in the first place to do--remove Saddam and his Baathist thugs. The law you cite is being fiercely resisted and fought by the head Shiite leader, who says it contains "many legal and constitutional violations." The existence of the law in itself is proof of the FAILURE to compose a working government without the thugs who led the country under Saddam. THAT'S PROGRESS? I think NOT!
The economic "growth" you cite is slightly more than rudimentary. ANY country following a war WILL regenerate its economy for the sake of survival of its citizenry; that is FAR from signaling a return to normal economic prosperity. People still only have electricity only 4 hours a day. 5 years later and the oil which was supposed to pay for this debacle is barely flowing, with corruption and black market dealings ruling the industry.
YOu say "It took us (the United States) 12 years to form our constitutional republic, so if it takes Iraq 6,7,-10 years to get its act together then so be it. If things in Iraq keep moving forward, history will vindicate Bush and Iraq will be a beacon of democracy in the middle east."
ARE YOU NUTS???!!
Chris, since when the hell are we into nation-building? You throw 3 T-R-I-L-L-I-O-N dollars at any country and you can squeeze any square peg into a round hole, but let me PROMISE you buddy; as soon as we're outta there, that place is going to go up like an arson fire. You can't export democracy --which is a relatively new "invention" FOUNDED ON "LIBERAL" PRINCIPLES, I MIGHT ADD!!--to a country which is older than recorded time and has done things as it has for thousands of years. ANd you CERTAINLY can't do it through force and coercion, while the country itself is surrounded by undemocratic countries ruled by tribal loyalties and corruption. Jesus, haven't you studied history at all?
A beacon of democracy? Are YOU SERIOUS? LOL! And I suppose it will just "spread like wildfire" right? Just like Bush and Cheney said it would, right? Like we were supposed to be "greeted as liberators" right? Please--get a clue!
It is my FIRMEST DESIRE to see Bush prosecuted and hung as a war criminal, along with Cheney. I will not cease to write letters to Congressmen and anyone who will listen to the American people and indeed the world, to arrest and indict these two scumbags and criminals.
And lets talk about your ideas of "Liberalism". Since when was transnationalism a Liberal idea? It would seem to me that that was a staple of Bush economic policy. Are you calling Bush a Liberal? LOL!
Secondly, Chris, "moral relativism" is not a " idea. Liberals are less religious and seek to free humankind from the corrupting and controlling influence of Religion and the Churches. That is a far cry form "Moral Relativism" I'm a registered Liberal, and I have a high standard of morality--just not one based on God or any musty old texts. Besides--look at what "religious morality" has given us these last 8 years as manifested by the magnanimous hypocrisies of most of the Republican "moral" posers!
And third--if I'm reading you right, that "multiculturalism" is wrong in your eyes, then thank you for proving that Conservatism is anti-American. Because the very BASIS of American identity is the multicultural embrace of all people--have you ever heard the story of how the country was founded, Chris? You know-Ellis Island, immigration, The Dutch, Germans, Irish, Italians, Poles, etc--the "tired and huddled masses yearning to break free", etc??!
If multiculturalism is a "failed idea", then America itself is a spectacular example of FAILURE!
Sorry, but my definition of Liberal-vs-Conservatism is spot-on. Conservatism--as you seem do define it in it's antithesis of Liberal ideas--is then based on Fear, Xenophobia, Tribalism, and Nationalism--ALL of which have failed spectacularly as governmental philosophies in recent memory!
Here's a parting shot, Chris--if Conservatism and the philosophies which you seem to so ardently espouse are so noble, so great for America and the World, then why are record numbers of voters saying that the country is on the wrong track, and why are record numbers of people signing up to vote in the next election, so as to change direction? Why do most news outlets agree that the Bush presidency has been nearly unanimously perceived as an unmitigated disaster?
Why has America lost the value of its currency, lost its respect in the world, lost its moral bearing and moral authority?
It's because the Grand Conservative Experiment was tried, and it CRASHED AND BURNED. FAILED MISERABLY! It is NO DIFFERENT than Communism or Fascism--a failed philosophy which fails precisely BECAUSE it is so far from Liberal Democratic ideals.
And the sad thing is, it has taken this country and its people down with it.
You were the guy saying until recently that the economy was just swimming right along! LOL!
Here's a clue Chris--WHATEVER indecipherable reasons keep you invested in this war, I would suggest to you that you are so EMOTIONALLY attached to it (I know how you hate that word!) that you can't bring yourself to admit that it already IS LOST. To admit that Chris, is NOT "anti-American". It doesn't mean that John Wayne sucks, or baseball should be replaced with soccer, or that a Hyundai is better than a Chevy Truck. It's simply admitting the Truth.
Come on over to the reality-side, and I promise you we'll not tease you about your former delusions...OK, buddy? =) "

" Seems to me the left and many Dems are invested in our defeat in Iraq, they've based a large portion of their platform on it and victory is digging them a grave.
Some recent accomplishments by the Iraqi government are a de-Baathification law that enables mid-level Baath Party members to reenter political and civic life-a new budget for the country-business registrations have increased by more than 9 percent since the surge began-The rate of total inflation in Iraq has fallen by more than 60 percentage points-Oil production is up-overall economic growth rate in Iraq is projected to hit 7 percent this year-75 percent of Iraqi businesses, according to a recent survey, expect continued economic growth over the next two years. Seems like real progress to me. It took us (the United States) 12 years to form our constitutional republic, so if it takes Iraq 6,7,-10 years to get its act together then so be it. If things in Iraq keep moving forward, history will vindicate Bush and Iraq will be a beacon of democracy in the middle east.
Your condensending assumption that liberals are smarter than conservatives is just plain silly. The liberal ideals haven't been adopted because they have been proven to be wrong time and time again: multiculturalism, moral relativism and transnationalism.
"

" Maybe, Chris, it's partly because the "liberal" media doesn't really exist except in the imagination of deluded people.

Look Chris, do yourelf a favor and stop posting because you make yourself look ridiculous whenever you do. "

" Chris, also---the reason that perhaps "liberal" ideas are not so "mainstream" as Conservative" ideas is because, IMO, Conservative ideas appeal to the more primal, basal nature of Humankind. Conservative values emphasize the more primitive, animal nature of Human Nature; the selfishness of Man, the "Strong Survives" mentality, the Fear of Outsiders--all the most primitive survival instincts that make men more like animals.
It takes a finer intellect and a deeper thought process to realize and embrace the ideas of caring for others outside of your "clan" and for recognizing the inherent worth in ALL individuals no matter how different they are from you and yours.
And sadly, that impulse doe not exist in the less intelligent who are driven more from the primitive parts of their psyche's, like animals are.
Just my humble opinion. "

" Chris, I ask you with a completely straight face and in utter sincerity--just what in the hell have we "won" in Iraq?
We've managed to suppress-for a few months--violence that has now flared up yet again. There is no political entity in Iraq that has yet assumed control or shown itself competent in leadership.
The militias are yet again starting to fight.
The military is stretched to a breaking point, and this war is costing us $12,000,000,000 (yes, that's BILLION) a month.
What the hell have we "won" Chris?
I think your problem Chris, is that you've bought into the straw man caricature that Ms Coulter and Rush invent in order to inflame emotional people who think in black-and-white extremes.
NOTHING ata ll has been "won" in Iraq. And history will prove that the people who criticized this war--"Liberal" and others--were completely right about its illegality and fruitlessness. "

" AJ is talking about reality? Now thats funny. Ooooh, the evil war machine-evil oil companies-evil Halliburton and KBR-evil Bush and Cheney...what else did I miss? Any new conspiricy theories? How's the chemicals from the government contrails treating you? Have you seen any black helicopters lately?
Whats really sad and pathetic is that you bust on people for having pride in their country and pride in the military. Mr. Peter is completely correct with regard to liberals.
We've won in Iraq yet Harry Ried and Nancy Pelosi say we've lost not to mention the idiots in the media who won't report on the successes we and the Iraqis have but boy howdy-if a bomb goes off somewhere-we are losing the conflict.
Downturn in the economy due to lousy and dishonest banking practices, its Bush's fault somehow (like he was personally approving bad loans), just ask Hillary or the Obamessiah.
If your liberal ideas and ideals were such a good thing, why after all these years, aren't they mainstream? "

" You're not by any chance an investor in the war machine are you?

Typical blind patriotism stuff here, and ignorant of reality. Sad, very sad.

"

" George Peter, I'll make this short and sweet:
You're sincerely deluded if you think that any one of these warmongering idiots has "America's interests at heart"!
Please get back on your medication. "