" GiveMeLiberty -- "libertarian" isn't a label by which I would be offended. I just don't know that all my views fit so neatly into that pigeon hole. For example, I am all for more secure borders and tossing anyone who's here illegally. But you could hardly call me a "conservative" LOL! Do I fit the mold? Never entirely.... "

" FG
I thought the editorial was great!
He's right about the TWO black Americas
1/4 will blame society for their woes and want want for free
3/4 however will DO something and BE something
(I wonder out of 3/4 that IS something how many throw it away?Pro sports)

"maximizing the opportunity all Americans have to change their situation," he says.
Along with, people like Cosby who try to rally the poor to improve their lives and not wallow in self-pity and self-destruction are accused of insensitivity by folks who are still stuck in a 1960s-esque activist paradigm that demands we blame racism or "the system" for every dysfunction that befalls black America."

A Standing ovation is needed for his editorial !!!!

"

" Farmer's Gal,

Your views so closely mimic those of (small-L) libertarians, it's uncanny.

I understand that you are against labels, and therefore I must refrain from saying that you ARE a libertarian. . . but . . well you are. Own it. "

" GiveMeLiberty,
let me rephrase..
using guns for robberies and murders "

" Joseph H. Brown's editorial (from one of cm's posts) is pretty good, and points the same place I have been pointing -- that the differences lie more in socio-economic class than race.

I tend to interact with other people as individuals, rather than classes of people because, after all, people ARE individuals, whereas they may or may not be "typical" for the groups to which they belong.

My view remains that no individual should be discriminated against because s/he is a member of any particular class or group of people, but nor should they be favored for membership in a group or class. "

" CM, I take offense at this statement:

"I could spend all day on the black PROS in any sport/or rappers getting off with a slap because they have money and feel guns/drugs/raping/dog-fighting is NOT WRONG in their eyes!"

As a gun owner, I am highly offended that you feel the need to lump gun owners in with drug dealers, rapists, and dog-fighters. "

" Well, brew, I think we've reached the point where further discussion is just reiteration. Even Karl and I disagree -- no, I don't think it's right to lift one person over another if that other is more qualified. Sorry, that just goes against my sense of justice, which I prefer to keep race-blind. I favor better enforcement of the level playing field, not overtipping the balance in the other direction. I guess I'm from the old "two wrongs don't make a right" school.

Unless we get some "new blood" in the form of someone who has not yet spoken on the subject, I think we've reached the end of anything constructive we could possibly get out of it.

(Unless AJ wants to explain Hegel applied to Affirmative Action). "

" Agreed, Brew!

This made my day. Check out the video of our smirking chimp pres...

http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/32339#comments
"

" I'm reading AOL news-and totally amazed at the comments that are posted there THAT ARE ALLOWED! The citizen bleeps nearly everything..


http://sports.aol.com/nba/story/_a/rider-arrested-for-alleged-auto-theft/20080329154309990001?ncid=NWS00010000000001 "

" brew, it's not in my nature to ignore a bigot. "

" grow up brew--if you were to read the links you'd see that I dont happen to be the only one discussing this topic.
It will be NEWS all this week!
In fact many would like this topic to be open discussions. Afterall they will be teaching new methods in school.
Corporations are having seminars on the issues.

...Think Globally, ACT locally...
"

" The topic of racism sure energizes CM. Since she has been spewing bigotry, hate and ignorance she has been posting more lines than the record holder, FG. I think in protest of her undesirable message we should just totally ignore her and not reply to her posts. What are your thoughts AJ, Karl and FG? "

" the N.A.A.C.P. now thinks it's discrimination to pass laws to STOP the "baggy pants show your underwear"

I had better ways to STOP my son.
Anytime I saw them on him,
(since he was over 18)
I would come up behind him, in the mall, in a store, or in a restaurant: Yank the back quickly and drop them to his ankles!
He would be all embarrassed-I'd say "well son if you're gonna show your underwear then why wear pants at all." !!
Another trick was throwing them away when I did his laundry!! hahaha "

" todays search I come across this, the hype should grow nationwide since this is the week of MLK 40th Anniversary:

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/mar/30/dealing-issues-race-america/

don't forget to read the POSTS and the related links to the left of the article!

a black columnist writes:

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/mar/30/bz-progress-and-failure-mark-anniversary/
"

" quiver,
stats show CA has one of the highest supply; hop the trolly to chula vista. lol.. "

" Well Waa Ha(CM), I got your point. Can you score me some Peyote????? "

" With the rebate checks coming, 10 kids equals 3,000 plus 1,200 for a married couple for a grand total of 4,200. I hope he uses it for the back taxes, I know I will use it for some of my future taxes.
"

" American Indians did surprise me with high drug stats-even though I know the peace-pipe still exists! lol.

The majority of them collect from "their" system, monies made from casinos etc. I do know that in most reservations if you are 1/8 (each tribe has their own number) they recieve monthly entitlements.
Plus thanks to "Government gives your land back" deals I believe the odds are slim to none of finding an A.I.at the foodstamp office. "

" a jokingly comment karl
--its sunday, the sun is shining, the birds are still acting a bit weird, but it's a great day to stop spring cleaning and go outdoors! "

" cm, please don't be ridiculous--"wise karl said since I am Indian I am in the high stats of using drugs."
I never said that. I was asking you if, since the percentage of American Indians is highest for drug use, then should we start a rant against "lazy, slacker drug-addicted AI's playing the system" in the manner of your generalized rantings against Blacks. The old "people in glass houses" argument, ya know?
Anyway--you didn't answer the question....?
FARMER's GAL--I read your argument, and I see a lot of emphasis on "Pride". YOu said Affirmative Action "...robs the minority person of the pride of knowing she got the job because she was best"
Ya know what I think? I think "Pride" don't mean sh*t when you need to put food on the table. I think that a warm coat feels better wrapped around a person than does their pride. I think there's a time for pragmatism and a time for pride. Smart people--like your friend there--know the difference. (Not inferring anything about you!).
With all due respect, FG, I believe that the disparagement of AA programs, and of the "best man for the job" mantra is a subtle form of the "Only the strong survive" mentality. It's the "weed out the weak" mentality.
Now don't get me wrong--I wouldn't want an airplane mechanic with an IQ of 76 to get the position because he's a minority. Nor do I think that all jobs should qualify for AA inductions.
But what do you say to a person who HAS studied, HAS really worked themselves to the bone, but because of the lack of quality education or their own access to relevant or up-to-date information, are genuinely not as qualified AT THAT TIME as maybe the next guy? Why not "lift all boats"? Why not recognize that some people may not be good at "tests" or resume writing, or may not be AT THAT POINT IN THEIR HISTORY the absolute "BEST" candidate?
That's where AA can help to lift someone up when they might otherwise bed overlooked. "

" Apologies! I didn't realize how much I had written until I saw it posted. Ye Gods!

Meanwhile -- is there anyone here who would be willing to self-identify as a member of a minority group to discuss your opinions/experience/feelings on the subject? "

" stevedallas,
this issue about fireman will always be a sour cookie as long as the mayor is an ex-fireman himself. People will always think he is doing favors.

In my area I have 2 fire stations-One a mile to the north of my home another a mile south of my home. many times i drive by one or the other and see the trucks there-so they are NOT out on a call.
YET our firemans UNION wants us to seek out a company to test all firehydrants and repair if needed.
This will be added taxes of course!
If the group on duty grocery shop together, in case of a call, why can't they check hydrants together?

Being a supervisor I do alot of on-the-job training with pay.
Shouldn't the 2 new fireman just be paid at a lower rate until they complete their training, similar to military pay: you enter on a level -train more-go up a level?
"

" Long, yet very good info FG!
"

" This IS NOT a religious subject!

Did you read the news --Wisconsin-on the recent death of an 11yr girl who died of undiagnosed, treatable form of diabetes because her parents believed in prayer over a doctor?
She had not seen a doctor since she got some shots at age 3, she attending public school until recently.

HOW was child protective NOT all over this?
How can a child attend public school without proof of shots?

(karl I can see you bouncing on the couch, hands shaking, and words overwhelming your mind)
YES this was the parents fault!!!!

But if she was 11 she needed shots at 6 to enter school and another set at about 11..why was no one checking?

"

" Quiver, if you were to read the previous posts: (short version)
1. I said I was Indian and Italian
2. karl asked me to prove stats on drug users, which I did.
3. On the stats it states Indians are high drug users.
4. wise karl said since I am Indian I am in the high stats of using drugs.
5. I dont do drugs! "

" Well nature lover, I posted last night at 3am to answer your question and let you know all about the overtime issue and some other stuff but the citizen decided to not post it for some reason! I didnt swear or violate and rules just told the truth about the outgoing mayor and council as to their part in the overtime issue! I always knew Timmy had friends at the citizen! i should have saved a copy cause i had a feeling it wouldnt end up on here, Not gonna spend all that time again so if you really care and want answers let me know and I can get some emails going with you! "

" Hegel for Beginners, in two paragraphs and a quotation, as interpreted by Farmer's Gal (who, like most people who've read Hegel, I suspect, probably doesn't really understand him fully anyway)

The most basic concept, vastly simplified, is "Thesis-Antithesis-Synthesis." The idea is that you have something, the "Thesis" -- let's say The French Revolution, which hoped to improve the condition of people living in France at the time. It gave rise to "Antithesis" -- its opposite, The Reign of Terror, which made the condition of living in France at the time much worse as they chopped off so many people's heads and everyone lived in open fear. These two opposing pendulum swings (good for the people, worse for the people) gave rise to a "Synthesis" -- a Constitutional form of government, an improvement over the two previous states and synthesizing both pasts into itself in a way that "rose above" the previous states. (Actually, it ended up giving rise to Napoleon, but let's not go there).

I paraphrase from Wikipedia, which explains this example thus:

"...on the one hand the upsurge of violence required to carry out the revolution cannot cease to be itself, while on the other, it has already consumed its opponent. The revolution therefore has nowhere to turn but onto its own result: the hard-won freedom is consumed by a brutal Reign of Terror. History, however, progresses by learning from its mistakes: only after and
precisely because of this experience can one posit the existence of a constitutional state of free citizens, embodying both the benevolent organizing power of rational government and the
revolutionary ideals of freedom and equality." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegel

But many argue that such a view is reductionist and over-simplified. (Well, sometimes that's where you have to start to understand something). They'd contend that this might be a better example: They'd say you can't truly understand "Hot" except in comparison to its opposite, "Cold," and that "Cold" cannot truly be known unless you understand "Hot." Neither is
"complete" or "whole" without the understanding of both opposites, and that in so understanding both, the thing is made more truly "Real," and that this "rising up" (in German "Aufhebung") of understanding is the "synthesis" part of the previous explanation, though I don't know that Hegel actually used that term.

There's a lot more to it, but Hegel is one of the most complex, inclusive and influential thinkers ever among mankind, and I couldn't begin to explain it all. What I am hoping is that this is enough for AJ, who has been reading Hegel more thoroughly and more recently than I
have, to explain to us how he is applying Hegelian dialectics (all that opposing and rising up stuff) to the question of race and Affirmative Action. "

" AJ -- I am also very strongly against reparations, so you see, my views remain consistent. I know of a little Middle Eastern country whose corrupt government keeps the itself afloat by playing the guilt card and sucking "reparations" out of a few Western countries so they can turn around and oppress the minority in their state with our tacit approval. Disgusting.

Wrongs done in the past are done and cannot be undone nor are they corrected with money (or favors, etc) paid today. We can change how we behave now, but we cannot change the past.

brew -- good question. As a department head who has sat on several search committees, this is a real life situation for me. I've had it happen that we had 2 candidates who were so close to identical in qualifications that the decision was very tough. We finally made it on the basis of some small amount more experience with the specific library system we use. But in that case, both candidates were middle-aged white women.

On a search committee in a previous job, we had to choose between two very close candidates, and ended up choosing the one we thought would fit in personality-wise better with our group. One probably couldn't state that as your reason for hiring today, but it is still an important factor. You have a job to get done and a team of people who have to be able to work together to get it done. From equally-qualified people, choose the one who will fit into the dynamics of the group best.

But again, we were choosing from a pool of women in their 30s that time.

(I have had -- and selected -- male candidates for library positions as well, though one continues to see more women apply than men).

I've not faced a situation such as you describe. At the first level in screening candidates, we don't know their race, or sometimes not even their gender, though sometimes a name would appear to be of some ethnic origin -- however, that can be an incorrect assumption and we do remind ourselves of that fact. That first resume level of screening is strictly based on the qualifications presented on paper for each candidate. If I weeded out people who were from ethnic minorities at that stage, A) I probably wasn't even aware of their race and B) the decisions were absolutely based on work qualifications compared against the skills required as set down in writing before the search began. We have pretty strict rules about hiring.

Where I work now, I suspect that if the candidates were indeed truly equally qualified, we'd be required to choose the minority. But personally, I would hold off going to that factor until I was sure I could not make a distinction based on some more work-related factor first. After all, what I want is the most qualified person, regardless of gender or race.

Luckily for me, I work in a place where we don't see discrimination based on race, gender or sexual orientation. We have folks of various of the above groups working in the Library at IC, and I have to say, it's one of the most pleasant work environments I've ever known.

If it came right down to it, I think I might have to wait to see what I would do -- not sure I could predict. I know I would be looking hard for whatever small factor made me think one candidate was just ever so slightly more qualified in terms of work ability than the other -- then I would feel like I had made the right choice, rather than basing it on race or gender. I know I would not feel comfortable offering someone a job over someone else solely because of his or her race.

I feel bad enough turning away a qualified person because someone else was more qualified. I know I have to, because a decision has to be made and you can only hire one, but I always remember these are human beings with feelings, lives, families, needs for a job and everything else. Only one can get the job, so someone, often someone qualified and deserving, will be put in an unhappy position by my decision. But that comes with the territory. I live with it by making sure I make the most fair decision I can -- or I should say, we can, because it is always a committee, not an individual, making the choice. To me, that's what it takes to live an ethical life.

Karl -- I do know someone who benefited from Affirmative Action. A woman I know from a previous job was leading a training session on diversity. She is a member of a minority group. Quite candidly, she told our group that when she was offered the position, she was told straight out that she was being offered the job because she was a member of this minority group, because the employer felt we didn't have enough minorities. She said she thought about it, she wasn't entirely comfortable with that, because she really would rather have been offered the job because she was the best qualified candidate. But in the end, she needed the money, swallowed her pride and her natural instinct to balk at such a thing, and took the job.

The situation forced her to choose between her own pride and ethics, and her desire for a high-paying job. In the end, she sacrificed her pride and ethics. Yes, she got an opportunity she might not have had otherwise, but at a price to herself. How is this right? How is it right to other candidates who were more qualified who were not given the opportunity they deserved more? How does this help earn this woman the respect of her co-workers, when she has had to sacrifice her respect for herself? She found ways to live with it and has gone on to do very well. So, success on a certain level, but at the price of ethics.

This is exactly what should never happen. It robs the minority person of the pride of knowing she got the job because she was best. It's like running a foot race and coming in third, and having someone take the first place trophy away from the winner and giving it to you because you are black, Hispanic, Asian, female, whatever. How can you feel good about that? How can you feel good about yourself? How can you feel not dishonest? And how is the person who actually DID come in first place going to feel? How is he or she going to feel about you? About minorities in general?

This sort of practice is a recipe for justified resentment, and as such, undermines the intent of the program -- which is to give minorities a chance at entree into opportunities they might not otherwise have had.

If you know your co-worker got the job because of his or her race and not because of his or her qualifications, how does that make you feel? It makes it a lot harder to respect that person's qualifications. No, if I myself were a minority, or, as I am, a member of a previously non-dominant group (i.e. female), I'd want to know I got ahead because of my skills and qualifications, because I was the best candidate available, so I could have respect for myself and feel I deserve the respect of my co-workers, fellow students, whatever. I'd be justifiably upset if I were NOT chosen because of my race or gender, but I would still want to be chosen because I was the best available candidate.

No, Karl, that just doesn't wash with me.

I think that in the past and in some places even today, there is a need to be more vigilant to ensure truly equal opportunity. I think there is a need to do more educating, both of non-minorities and among minorities themselves as to what opportunities are possible for people (because I think there are many who feel some opportunities are not possible for them which might well be possible). But I continue to believe that artificially tipping the scales in the other direction perpetuates an imbalance of justice.

Equal opportunity means a level playing field. Affirmative Action means tipping the scales to favor those who were previously unfavored. And that is not balance or justice and will breed (and has bred) more problems than it solves. "

" QT, can you blame them? "

" In some fields women have already achieved equality in job opportunities. In these fields they would be equals in the competition for advancement and employment, thus they would not require an edge in hiring or advancement. "

" cm wrote on Mar 29, 2008 10:44 PM:
" I am a total fighter AGAINST drugs that includes family!
I am totally AGAINST drinking & driving!

I hardly ever drink-my OV split days were back in my 20's. Ocassionaly I may by a case when I come to NY and it sits in my frig for a year unless my sis comes to visit.(I have a couple of decent sisters too)--yet on a hot summer night I shock the kids and have a kahula milkshake with very little kahula!
Maybe the Italian side saved me from the Indian drug side! lol. "


So you are saying American Indians are drug users? I know a few that aren't. Then I know some that are, and they have these pow wows and get all buzzed up. It's just that they do not like to share their peyote. "

" So everyone knows-I have recieved several phone calls or email links--
THIS topic of racism on this 2-cents forum it making the rounds more than you might know.
"Do you read the Citizen online?"
"theres this racism topic thats fired up!"
"GO read!"

****many are not commenting but they sure are reading*****



"

" I am a total fighter AGAINST drugs that includes family!
I am totally AGAINST drinking & driving!

I hardly ever drink-my OV split days were back in my 20's. Ocassionaly I may by a case when I come to NY and it sits in my frig for a year unless my sis comes to visit.(I have a couple of decent sisters too)--yet on a hot summer night I shock the kids and have a kahula milkshake with very little kahula!
Maybe the Italian side saved me from the Indian drug side! lol. "

" karl, thank-you.
no where in all of this did I say ALL blacks or ALL whites or ALL anyone.

I have said and will say again--there are some very nice and good people of all races, and there are some bad!

You soley believe its because of being poor, no quality programs, the justice system against them, and no one to aid--
DO you personally know people on the system? I do..
Do you personally know people who have gone to jail for what they feel is unfair? I do..
Do you personally know someone who came from the bottom of the barrel and rose well above it? I do.
Do you personally know someone that had it rich and threw it away to drugs?
I do.

Society has deteriorated, todays kids are getting worse-its sad when you cant even open your front door.
Everyone blames the government but how many more laws have to get passed?
It's the people who Have no Ambition/cry poor me/and want want want for FREE.

One has to rise above pressures of life.




"

" Brew not trying to rile but your line: "depending on the field, a woman should be selected". What field would a woman NOT be selected? "

" Well congratulations, cm! I think this is the FIRST time I can remember where you've actually done research, and I can say that your information contradicts mine--I stand corrected!
However, did you notice that the difference between Whites and Blacks is ONLY 1.3% higher for Blacks--certainly not enough to justify our rants or generalized prejudice toward Blacks with regard to being drug addicts.
AND!--did you notice that the usage of Alcohol was a full 4% HIGHER among Whites than Blacks? Are you going to go off on a rant now against drunken Whites? Is alcohol really any different than drugs when it's abused? By the way--it was higher in "Heavy" and "Binge" drinking for Whites as well!
You are part Indian--American Indian? If that is so, did you see that the HIGHEST results of drug use was for American Indians--what does that infer about YOU? Should we lump you in with all the drug users in that ethnic group?
Gettin' the picture yet? "

" First of all I don't really believe in the current need for affirmative action programs. There was a time when they were necessary. I do believe that if a person's qualifications and scores are equal, then a black or native american, a war veteran or depending on the field, a woman should be selected. Also active recruiting should be directed to minorities but not restricted to minorities. FG if everything was equal in the qualifications of two persons who would you select? "

" Howdy there Steve DullA$$, suppose u tell me the facts seeing as how u know ALL about it and please do it line by line so that I can be informed exactly how each one of my statements is false. Cuz I reread it and its looks pretty accurate to me. And while u r at it tell me, r u a fireman? Do u live in this area and pay the exorbitate taxes or r u just a fireman groupie and scan ebay for items to add to your collection? hmm? come on and give the FACTS, I WANT to learn from the firemans advocate. u r always the 1st one to defend this 15 man contract but I always ask and NOone responds why 15? How many fires really occur? I am all for fireman but especially police but that is a story for another day...rude dude... "

" Amen, Brew. I agree. Sorry to disagree with you FG, but I see affirmatiive action as a form of reparation.

Anyhow, this issue is deeply hegelian. The sooner we all start paying attention to reality, the better off we'll all be.

Got that, movedsouth? lol.... "

" NatureLover, thanks for the enlightenment. Our town has a fire dept. There is at least 6 of them. There are I believe 3 trucks plus a water transporter. They are not always on the go. They respond to a lot of accidents and emergency issues. But, when there is a fire, they as well as stations from neighboring cities and county all do there job. My town had 2 huge fires in 2 years. There was minimal property damage, but it was HUGE. I thank them every day for their help. "

" karl says
when the HELL are you going to acknowledge the FACTS which I stated about White drug abuse rates EXCEEDING that of Blacks?

CM SAYS: latest stats reported

Race/Ethnicity
Current illicit drug use varied by race/ethnicity in 2006. Among persons aged 12 or older, the rate was lowest among Asians (3.6 percent). Rates were 13.7 percent for American Indians or Alaska Natives, 9.8 percent for blacks, 8.9 percent for persons reporting two or more races, 8.5 percent for whites, 7.5 percent for Native Hawaiians or Other Pacific Islanders, and 6.9 percent for Hispanics.

http://www.oas.samhsa.gov/nsduh/2k6nsduh/2k6Results.cfm#2.7

"

" nature lover, your post has not one thing thats true in it accept maybe the line that says "California is densly populated"! Do some research before sounding like an a$$ ! "

" With all due respect, FG, lets ask the minorities who HAVE profited and achieved their goals through affirmative action programs before we so roundly condemn them.
I think that they can be necessary in areas like the deep South where racism against Blacks and minorities is practically endemic.
I also believe that there have been just as many people who used them and benefited from them as those who abuse them. I mean, what would stop racist people from "fixing" exams results or evaluations against Blacks if you always simply looked at numbers?
Or consider this--what if, as a result of the preponderance of perhaps just marginally-better qualified White people constantly getting the job, you had a situation where a White "environment" was created in companies, and when a Black finally DID qualify, he found himself in an atmosphere of hostility and xenophobic prejudice? Couldn't you just hear some redneck accusing him of bribery or deceptiveness because he beat out his cousin or brother for the job because of the ingrained perception that the Blacks were unqualified for the positions?
Affirmative Action programs were not only emplaced to level the field--they were designed to promote diversity in the workplace. "

" Affirmative action programs don't work.

Affirmative Action programs lead to minorities starting to think they "deserve" to have things handed to them on a platter, while at the same time, such programs lead to non-minorities resenting minorities for the favoritism shown the minorities and to thinking that any minority person who got ahead got there not on their own merits, but simply by virtue of being a member of a minority group. That's it, in a nutshell.

Give all people equal opportunity -- demand it, enforce it, educate the people to create an environment where it is possible -- but do not put reverse discriminatory practices in place because they backfire on your good intentions. "

" The existance of bigots like CM are the proof of a need for affirmative action programs. "

" cm, again, just some STUNNING IGNORANCE on your part in your latest rants there.
I have a serious question for you--when the HELL are you going to acknowledge the FACTS which I stated about White drug abuse rates EXCEEDING that of Blacks?
Or about the bias in the sentencing of Blacks for drug-related crimes?
Why don't you stop foaming at the mouth, spewing bile, and just TRY to make a connection between FACTS and why your position is WRONG?
cm, you're a perfect example of someone wanting to convince themself of something if they just repeat something enough!
READ WHAT I WROTE AND MAKE AN ATTEMPT TO DIGEST IT!??? "

" To QT: to clarify what the hub bub is regarding the firemen here in Auburn is that the now mayor who was once the head of the fireman negotiated a contract with a now gone city manager that staffed the fire dept to read that there HAD to be 15 people on duty 24/7. Now there was not enough trained firefolks around so we h/b paying out the nose for overtime to fulfill this bogus contract. California is densly populated and fires I am sure are as frequent as wind but in Auburn? maybe they fight one fire in an entire month. So while we appreciate them greatly, the union is doing more harm than good and they act as if its THEM against us when we are paying their salaries. Just another example of Auburn having too many chiefs not enough injines...oops is that NOT PC? "

" hmm!....... even MLK never says African-American,
he states: Negro community/Negro people

his dream :judged by the content of their character
1.majority: drugs/violence/in jail

his faith:" we will be able to work together, to pray together, to struggle together, to go to jail together, knowing that we will be free one day."
2. they do go to jail together.

"black men and white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics—will be able to join hands."
3. Ricky Manning JR, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricky_Manning,_Jr

He states: the process of gaining our rightful place we must not be guilty of wrongful conduct
4. Micheal Vic, Darryl Strawberry

He states: not allow our creative protest to degenerate into physical violence
5. Jena 6

More that just talk the talk,
MLK must be so proud!
"

" My point Fg is though they did horrible crimes (bundy) they got what they deserved!
karl and Aj will look beyond and into their childhood and say well they had bad parents or abuse issues or whatever and thats what caused them to be.

I know many who have had abuse issues, alcoholic parents, druggie parents, many who began to travel in their parents shoes-YET something/someone woke them up and they took advantage of programs in place and become outstanding people despite their odds.

Yet I still see many -just sitting there waiting for another program to feed them free stuff.

AGAIN everything leads back to CHOICES, the poorest of the poor can become rich just as the richest of rich can become poor-CHOICES.

Do I think we need to add more programs? NO
Do I think we need to make changes to the ones we have? YES
1. starting with drug tests-if I have to get one to apply for a job then they should get one to apply for the system/program!
2. In the poors favor-should all programs be cut off when they first get a job? NO-give a year(?)to get on their feet.
3. BUT like a war, it shouldn't linger on for a lifetime.

Vdare.com may be harsh to the truth-
especially on the facts that speaking of just the stats of black crime, the stats of black colleges/jobs, the simple fact of mentioning the words black/Affirmative Action/etc.--one is accused of being racist!

Just as there will always be terrorists, there will always be a divide of black & whites--mostly do to constant reminder of slavery/"N" words in song/ and wanting to be called the now African-American. Those are black CHOICES .
1. slavery is done and over with, those today cannot change what was.
2. You don't want ME to refer to you as the "word" well stop singing it yourself!
3. YOU are NOT and never have been AFRICAN AMERICAN..
If you're a citizen, You are American!






"

" AJ has the right approach. I stopped watching TV at the age of 16 -- which was, let me see, about 27 years ago. I don't miss it.

I lived for some 15-16 years with a husband who was a voracious reader of all different points of view, from the mainstream to the radical extremes and the far out. We learned A LOT about the world by looking at it from a very broad spectrum of perspectives. I still hold that's the best way to go about informing yourself, though I find without him around on a daily basis, I get lazy and don't seek out as much variety of news as that to which I was formerly regularly exposed.

I do now see some small amount of TV at Farmer Guy's house. We find we like to watch Lou Dobbs on CNN -- the "independent" perspective, while still skewed in its own way, just keeps bringing up issues the mainstream would like to see swept under the rug. It can be a handy starting point for further research on my own on given topics, and the views there are closest to my own -- against the pointless war, but also against illegal immigration, for campaign reform, against corporate control over just about everything, and about digging out the underlying real motivations for political actions that are NEVER the reasons the politicians feed us (wars included). Swallow it all whole? Nope. But it gives me some good starting points.

cm, that last one really didn't make a lot of sense to me. One hole I see is that the white criminals you named committed crimes exponentially more heinous than the black criminals you named, so the comparison doesn't hold -- OF COURSE they received more harsh sentences.

Karl and AJ have a point on this one -- that because of historical circumstances, the situation can be different for non-dominant groups (blacks, women, etc). Especially in the past, these people did not get the same treatment by courts, police, in job opportunities, etc. I acknowledge that these discriminatory differences have existed and still exist in many instances, making it difficult to draw a fair comparison.

In other words, it seems that blacks and whites make the decisions for how to proceed with their lives in the context of very different social/cultural environments -- though I think I tend to draw another more telling differentiation between income classes than racial groups.

However, my point is that this situation is not fixed by reverse discrimination. Rather, programs such as Affirmative Action, serve only to exacerbate things on both ends. I believe very much in Equal Opportunity -- but that means what it means, for whites as well as blacks, men as well as women, etc.

Meanwhile, what you see out your door is seen through the lens of your personal experience and your interpretation of why it is the way it is. Yes, I say, people are still responsible for their own behaviors, but what you see outside your door has much more complex causes than just "blacks in this town are lazy, mooching druggies." Some are. Sure. Others aren't. And even those who are, got there for a complex set of reasons including the culture in which they live, the opportunities available to them (or not), the attitudes of their peers, the nature of the system (which is dysfunctional), etc. They still have free will, but what they choose to do with it is also shaped by their environment. It's complicated and your over-simplified pronouncement condemning them all is indeed a show of prejudice.

I don't negate that you look out your door and see what you describe. Rather, I say you are over-simplifying your interpretation of how those people came to be that way, and that your interpretation is colored by prejudices that you aren't seeing in yourself, but which look glaringly obvious to outside observers.

I am NOT Ms. Politically Correct, and don't have a problem with "calling a spade a spade" (to use an old adage and risk being labeled racist for it!) If some politician or person is doing something wrong, I don't care what color s/he is -- I won't hold the verbal punches, even though I risk being labeled (unfairly, but it happens all the time). At the same time, I do try to see the bigger picture. I'm human too and may miss it sometimes, but I am trying. "

" "Must be all the firemen have to do is sit around playing on our computers, voting on The Citizen question today about how to use new trainees."

That is pretty rude. Firemen risk their lives to save your life. If you think firemen are lazy, come out to California next time we have a fire. You'd be surprised! "

" If AJ "I no longer watch television for my news (turned it off a couple years back" how do you even know what they're saying good or bad? Reading your "wayout" there conspiracy websites or Listening to what karl posts? GET THE CAT OUT!!

You speak of paying attention to what's going on around me--well I have for many years-
-and what I see are VERY LAZY, mostly blacks mooching off the system, having more kids to keep them on the system, able to supply their drug habits with monies from the system, finding every resource available to NOT get off their STOOP!
The crimes levels have gone up because of them-sadly the black on black crimes have overly increased. You'd think they'd atleast have respect for their own!

You state they receive injustice when it comes to judges-yet they are the majority in FRONT of judges!
Just maybe judges are at their breaking point-early on in their careers they caved in and looks what's its become-MORE blacks in front of them. So now they try the opposite approach, they didn't learn the first time, harsher sentence the 2nd time.

No different than my parenting-should I be labeled a BAD mom because I take a stronger offense after a warning??

I could spend all day on the black PROS in any sport/or rappers getting off with a slap because they have money and feel guns/drugs/raping/dog-fighting is NOT WRONG in their eyes!
Look up Ricky Manning jr, The Notorious B.I.G, or Darryl Strawberry.

Then add, did these whites not get a harsh sentence? Ted Bundy or John Wayne Gacy, Charles Manson, David Berkowitz,and Donald Gaskins, Jr.

You join the "stoopers" and boo-hoo IT's NEVER enough/Not Quality enough then call the rest of us racists or bigots.

When I "begin in my own yard" working to change the "stoopers" I know.

its one thing to talk about it--its a whole new world doing something about it! QUACK QUACK!

"

" Karl, here is an interview with Rupert Murdoch, I don't seem to find your reason given for starting FOX News. Here is my link, please send yours.http://www.worldscreen.com/interviewscurrent.php?filename=0405murdoch.htm "

" Does the members of the fire department work for the city or does the city work for the fire department members? "

" Hey, has Owascoman been reincarnated as AJ??? Hmmmmm....almost identical style of writing....hmmmmm "

" What a crock the results of the poll are--no doubt the firefighters have all called in their extended families to vote against the mitigating of their outrageous overtime exploitation. It's just sickening how they're screwing this city and it's taxpayers! "

" moved south, I can't even find the words to convey to you the heartfelt and deep, sincere disappointment that I felt when I read your post about you watching Faux News because you like to "see it as it is".
You ARE kidding me, right? Please tell me that, at 65 years old, you have acquired SOME wisdom, SOME perspective--SOMETHING that enables you to recognize blatant "spin" and propaganda? I mean, you grew up in the wake of Dr Goebbels, and in the midst of the Cold War--were you asleep, like Rip Van Winkle for all that time?
Rupert Murdoch, owner of Faux News, has admitted that his STATED INTENTION in creating Faux News was to create a "news" outlet which had the expressed purpose of "skewing" the news. Bill O'Really(?) has been caught in numerous occasions simply making up completely false and nonexistent "studies", "Universities", and "agencies" which supposedly underlie and/or gird his claims for whatever he happens to be spinning or simply making up to try to influence the gullible and ill-informed. This is on the public record, MS. This is F-A-C-T. Keith Olberman of MSNBC has caught him in numerous incident like this, and has shown the video footage of it PROVING it!
When I read statement like yours, it makes me profoundly sad and sincerely frightened for the future of this country, because if old salts like you--who SHOULD have some wits and experience about them--can fall for this propaganda and deem it veritable and believable---then surely the naive young are being led like sheep to the slaughter.
Congratulations, movedsouth; you just ruined my day...=( "

" Not true, movedsouth. I prefer to get ALL sides of an issue, which is why I no longer watch television for my news (turned it off a couple years back (for the 3rd time, likely for good). If you really think your getting balanced coverage from the spin machine you are delusional. I'm not even talking just about Faux news, either.

Granted, Faux will often have guests with opposing views, often going beyond even what are considered the most "liberal" (ha) networks, for which I do give them credit, but the message is almost always obscured by shouting matches and limited time.

You should turn off your TV and read some books that will challenge your "conventional" wisdom. "

" AJ, I guess you would rather watch news that has just one point of view, hearing two sides to stories must confuse you. Your quote from MLK describes yourself. "I was trying to make some sort of point", and not being wise because of a news station I may watch, you really work with specifics. Karl, I did not ASSume you felt that way it was a question! (?) You answered my question, thank you. "

" You're right FG. Have you ever studied the Hegelian dialectic? I have only recently been enlightened about it. It does seem to describe the elites tactics pretty well. "

" News like it really is, movedsouth?

Please give me a break. Their spin obviously has your head spinnin' so much that you don't/won't/can't think clearly. "

" I just ran across this quote I thought might be fitting, from someone most everyone respects.

"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity": Martin Luther King, Jr.

I can think of a few people that post here regularly that are sincerely ignorant and conscientiously stupid. "

" AJ, you did make "some sort of point", I guess it showed what you are really like. As for Fox news, at my age I would rather see news as it really is. Faux news, you must take lessons from Karl. If wiser is wishing ill to others, I'm happy the way I am. You made no sense. You did make some sort of point, think before you hit the send button! "

" Thanks, naturelover, and movedsouth too -- for the comments on debate without being uncivil (and its being time to chill a bottle as well as ourselves). We're dropping back into nastiness and sniping which gets us nowhere -- as an online community, or as a country as a whole.

AJ, your fears about who runs the government are well-founded. So long as they keep us chasing each other's tails around, they have us right where they want us. Seems to me that's what's happening right here.

I think cm has some legitimate points buried in there, but at times she stretches them too far and they bleed over into prejudice -- not conscious prejudice, but prejudice all the same. That's the point at which she should be engaged in discussion, not slammed upside the head with a verbal two-by-four. I do NOT think she's a bad person, a purposeful racist and the example of all that is wrong with our country, as some people here have made out. Like all of us, her personal experiences have shaped/colored her views. A more productive discussion might work at how to sort those things one from the other.

I often disagree with cm, probably more often than I agree, but I can't see how being so uncivil furthers any discussion. When you reach a point when the other party with whom you are debating is entrenched in his/her views, that's when it's time to state your own position one last time then drop it as a futile waste of both parties' time and energy.

naturelover has the best approach -- time to chill on that one. By all means continue the discussion on race and racism, but can we drop the bashing of each other? "

" HAPPY SPRING! I HOPE YOU ALL HAVE A FANTASTIC WEEKEND. "

" movedsouth, at 65 years old, I would have thought that you would learn not to assume things about people. I don't wish harm on her, but AJ is correct in that she needs a bit of character-building in her life, and that doesn't often come easy....
Dr Phil has helped more people than the lot of Conservative scum that fester in the airwaves. He's smart, direct, and the funniest thing is, HE holds people accountable for EXACTLY the type of stuff that you people sit here and b!tch about. Wanna explain your hypocrisy? You seem like you hate anyone with a brain o a way to force people to look at themselves in the mirror--hmmm, why am I not surprised?
cm, you've tried the ol' "switching the goalposts" with me before, and trying to divert the harsh spotlight away from yourself onto me doesn't help you honey--furthermore it's argumentatively disingenuous. We're not talking about charity or kindness here, we're talking about ATTITUDES and RACISM, which you unfortunately have in spades. Nice try, but nobody here is buying it.
I hear ya quackin', honey... "

" She's pathetic Karl, no doubt about it. It's people like that that make me realize how little we're advancing as a society.

She feels perfectly comfortable with her racism, and has no idea how ignorant she is even when you point stuff out to her.

Her and others like her have been so indoctrinated by the right-wing spin machine for so long I'm afraid there is little hope for them, or us. They have a tendency to drag everything down with them.

Movedsouth, for someone your age I'd have thought you'd be a bit wiser! Too much time in front of Faux news I guess.

RE my "catastrophe" comment, I didn't really mean it, I was just trying to make some sort of point.

Have a good weekend all.

"

" So tell me karl
How many "free" lessons do you give a week for the OPPressed?
What after school program do you attend to aid these Oppressed?
What Oppressed fund do you and your groupies have setup for sponsership?
How many "home for humanities" have you participated it?
How many lectures have you given time and effort to aiding the oppressed?
Are you a BIG BROTHER to a child of an oppressed?

Yes, it's a duck! one that talks the talk BUT never walks the walk!

"

" Ultra-Right-Wing Conservative??
I don't consider myself anything when it comes to politics. I registered republican when I was 18 because I liked the elephant better than the donkey-I knew for sure I wasn't an azzz.
But I vote for what/whom I believe in no matter what stupid party they belong to.

maybe that there divides the country to begin with.

"

" Karl, now there is a winner Dr Phil! I do feel he is milder than Jerry Springer, but check out this site about him. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._Phil_%28TV_series%29 "

" Karl, you seem to support AJ, do you support his wish for catastrophe befall cm? I am 65 and have never had those feelings or associated with anyone who expressed those feelings. "

" Dr Phil is a sad excuse.... "

" So cm cites a race-bashing, xenophobia-spreading Ultra-Right-Wing Conservative website and claims she has "fun" there--just another window into the empty vacuum that is cm's "mind", and a revealing glimpse into how she justifies her Racism and Bigotry.
Pathetic, but not surprising.
AJ, Dr. Phil would call cm a "right-fighter"--a person who's ALWAYS right in their own mind; one who cannot admit to error or compromise, just someone so insecure in their own identity that they have to constantly reinforce it by being "right"--no mater how wrong they really are.
SAD! "