" I accept your apology. "

" I had a good talk with the Business Librarian and we looked at some statistics. The bottom line is the old one about statistics -- you can usually get them to support whatever you want to say, and people have set these stats up to go both ways when it comes to upstate/downstate economic relations.

Our Business Librarian says it's about even; if you take everything into account, they balance out. He explains some of the more confusing points:

"Part of the fallacy comes about as to how the funds are distributed for education (larger districts get a bigger piece of the school tax pie) and the higher salaries closer to and in NYC. NYC does not assess property taxes for school taxes, relying on income taxes."

On this point, I concede, and humbly apologize for perpetuating the common prejudice on the subject.

But, I also talked with the reference librarian about the garbage trucks. They are of particular interest to him since they also come through the very small Westchester town where his mom currently lives. Without any equivocation or hesitation, he asserts that NYC garbage does indeed come to upstate NY. Since the Staten Island landfill was closed, garbage from the City has been sent to all the places you mention, and to North Carolina, where they apparently put it on barges going who-knows-where, and it comes upstate. And it gets sent to upstate NY, including Seneca Meadows here in the Fingerlakes.

Interesting to note that NYC Mayor Bloomberg has said that NYC would never send their waste anywhere without the consent of the host community. However, that consent is coming only from the currently elected local government and the private sector companies involved, and

"Garbage processors have traditionally relied on the Commerce Clause and antitrust theories to challenge local enactments to control or ban the siting of merchant waste management facilities." (http://concernedcitizens.homestead.com/files/swm_pub_auth3.htm)

Meanwhile, I did find a reliable source for the issue of garbage trucks specifically from NYC and the problems with them passing through small upstate communities. Last fall, Senator Schumer met with officials from the NYC Dept of Sanitation to discuss the matter. If the garbage were not coming from NYC, this wouldn't be the group to meet:

http://www.senate.gov/~schumer/SchumerWebsite/schumer_around_ny/record.cfm?id=286376&

The most relevant news articles, unfortunately, are no longer posted on the newspaper websites, even though their links linger on the web. I was able to pull this one up using ProQuest:

SEN. SCHUMER TO HOST TRUCK TRAFFIC SUMMIT IN AN EFFORT TO KEEP NOISY, DANGEROUS NYC GARBAGE TRUCKS FROM ROLLING THROUGH FINGER LAKES COMMUNITIES, HURTING QUALITY OF LIFE.
US Fed News Service, Including US State News. Washington, D.C.: Oct 30, 2007.

Fair enough? "

" I've put my question about social services dollars to one of our reference librarians here to see if he can point me in the direction of some authoritative statistics. This is our Business Librarian, so economic figures are his forte. He was also born and raised in NYC, so if I am wrong, I'm sure he'll let me know. ;-)

As for the garbage, it makes no difference to me whether the garbage is hauled by privated carriers or not -- it's still NYC and other downstate garbage coming here. I also don't care if a tiny number of people who own Seneca Meadows are getting paid to receive the garbage, it's still coming here. And it's coming here through our small towns with non-highway roads in heavy, often-speeding, smelly garbage trucks.

But I am perfectly willing to be fair and have my mind changed if I am wrong -- though not, I think, on the subject of heavy garbage trucks running through small towns. I'll stick to that one, regardless whence they come, except for local collection.

BTW, I lived in Brooklyn, on Foster Ave, for a short period of time when I was first engaged to my now-ex-husband. "

" Thank you for some facts to dispute. As the 1st website cites, most of the trash coming along rte 20 comes from private haulers, and not all from NYC.

The 2nd one just cites trucks, but not where they are originating from, so not from NYC.

The 3rd clearly states garbage trucks coming from NYC. According to the DEC and their own sources, they don't bring the BULK of their garbage to the fingerlakes. And Seneca Meadows is paid for the garbage that is brought there.

The contention is not the destination, but the route it takes.

Thank you, NL for letting me argue (and read) some real points and articles, and not some silly over-generalizations.

NYC is not the drain of upstate NY, as was the original point. And to compare Detroit to NYC is not a good comparison.

Get out today and enjoy the sunshine!
"

" http://www.fool.com/news/associated-press/2007/11/28/schumer-regulate-garbage-truck-traffic.aspx

http://www.auburnpub.com/articles/2007/05/22/news/latest_news/latestnews01.txt

http://www.syracuse.com/articles/news/index.ssf?/base/news-11/1203674335303860.xml&coll=1

just to name a few.... "

" I did do some research, thus my previous posting: I know there is a truck problem, however, it is not coming from the NYC waste. NYS IMPORTS waste from VT and MA - and gets monetarilly (sp?) compensated, but sends its own waste to PA, NJ, OH and VA. This was one source: http://www.ncseonline.org/NLE/CRSreports/Waste/waste-7b.cfm The citizen is not my primary source of news. It is a highly inaccurate publication. But it is entertaining. Kind of like the National Enquire of news. Sensational and inaccurate, mostly. Anyway, a quote from another source: "No American city has more garbage than New York City, or more trouble getting rid of it. Ever since 2001, when New York City closed its only landfill--Fresh Kills (sic - this is in Staten Island)--the city has been grappling with a growing garbage crisis. We spend a day in the life of two sanitation workers, then follow the garbage on its odyssey through indoor dumps all around New York City, down the highways and byways of the eastern seaboard, and to its final destination--most often--landfills in Pennsylvania. I could go on, but I could find no evidence of NYC garbage coming upstate to the fingerlakes. I am just so sick of people from upstate bemoaning the fact that NYC eats up so much resources, when upstate benefits from NYC in so many ways! I look forward to seeing your own research, and no articles from the Citizen, please! "

" I'll do some research, and if I am wrong, I'll admit it -- re: social services.

As for the garbage, however, I don't know how you could have missed the many, many articles, letters, meetings, proposed legislation and so forth concerning the heavy garbage truck traffic which is currently routed through the tiny towns, up Route 90 by my home, over on Rockefeller Rd. on the other side of Owasco Lake, etc., where the roads are not equipped to handle such heavy-weight traffic, and where the small-town residential areas are not suited to safely handle heavy-volume traffic. These haulers are coming through these areas to avoid paying tolls for the Thruway; instead they are tearing up the small towns and leaving them with the road repair bills. And that garbage is coming from downstate. For this issuee, I'd say it's your turn to do a little research.

Maybe we'll each learn something from the other. "

" There are more people that live in NYC, contribute more but certainly do not "use up way more in social services than all of upstate put together." Isn't that quite an over-generalization? Yes, I think it is. Or do you have some research to back this statement? More people do live in NYC than all of NYS, as only 22 percent of the entire NY population live in rural NYS, so you would think more would be involved in receiving social service aid. I don't know the exact statistic on that, however.

I don't know what private garbage companies do, but perhaps they are bringing their garbage upstate? I just don't know what trucks you are seeing. However, I just did a little research and found NYC garbage actually goes to PA, VA and NJ.

So, FG, I am sorry, as you were wrong about NYC taking up all the food from NYS, you are wrong on both of these other topics as well. No offense, just some facts. "

" Then what are all those garbage trucks carrying that come from the city to Seneca Meadows if not waste from NYC? There may be more people downstate, but they use up way more social services than all of us upstate put together. They use up more than they contribute in taxes and take ours to cover their shortfall.

But I will agree with you completely about the produce. There is no justifiable reason for the United States to be buying produce from abroad, shipping it across the country, risking the health of our citizens with less-monitored products for things we can grow right here. I have friends who grow beef and pork two doors up the street from me and sell it downstate -- as you say, in a farmer's market. ON this point we are fully agreed. "

" I must comment first on the point of view that upstate is forgotten or carries those who are downstate?! There are more people who live downstate, and therefore who contribute more money to the state via property and sales taxes, as well as taxes paid via income. This is a fact. So, we upstaters need the downstaters more. If anyone is being bled dry, it is them. And, the NYC garbage is shipped to NJ and Staten Island, not upstate. Please know the facts first before you say silly things. NYC contributes more financially to us than we contribute to them. I applaud Spitzer, though, for trying to find a balance. Ours is a tricky state. There are no others that compare. NYC is a metropolis, while MI, CA, IL, etc are just large cities in even larger states. And if you go to the supermarkets in NYC, (and Auburn for that matter) most of the produce comes from CA and Mexico! Only the farmers markets carry most NY produce. (Sorry for my long-windedness!) "

" On and on...and I suppose you think you are stating your point to a man perhaps? Some need to get out in the world and realize their egos are overinflated by a false self of ones greatness by the flowery power of words. Then they wonder why 'the others' dont like them - so mean! A point to take under wing is that assumption does not beome you. "

" Entrenched implies a closed mind: that the person is so set in his/her thinking that s/he is not ever going to consider another POV, no matter how logically argued.

I used to run across "hostile ones" back in the days when I did internet dating (today we'd say they need "anger management") -- a tiny minority, thankfully, who went ballistic and became verbally abusive whenever they ran across a woman who was independent and intelligent and could take care of herself. For some reason, defying logic, these types felt so threatened by a strong woman that it was like waving a red flag in front of a bull. It didn't matter what was the topic of conversation, because it wasn't the content that set them off. It was that the woman didn't feel she needed a man to take care of her, that she wasn't going to be subservient. There was no sense trying to engage these men in conversation, which requires give and take, because they were so *entrenched* in their view, as seen by them through their own problems, that they could not look at things objectively. The only thing to do was walk away, figuratively speaking.

Debate is fine and healthy and an exercise of our inalienable human rights. The views do not have to be irreconcilably opposite -- not much point in debating when there is no chance of coming to some sort of conciliation at the end.

No one here has ever argued against debate, but more readers than just I have objected to abusive and irrelevant mudslinging.

I am guilty, however, of allowing myself to be drawn into engaging in returning an insult that had previously be slung at me. If it is "condescending" to strive to hold myself above such petty nastiness, then so be it -- I'll stick to it and proud of it. "

" What some consider 'bad language' is called colorful by others. 'Entrenched' simply implies being impassioned. To debate means there are opposing sides with entirely different views. To judge or critique others that oppose this common right of being American could be construed as arrogance and as an act of being condescending. B4 you pass judgement that people have "issues" look in the mirror and realize we do not all look up. "

" Happy Leap Year!!! "

" Thanks, Andy and Rich -- now I do remember more -- there's a limit on shipping cases from wineries, right?

This time it's Democrats, next time, it's Republicans -- they all suck us dry. And this is esp true in any state where there is a single major urban center which is functional only because the rest of the state supports it (like Detroit in Michigan -- no different than New York City in New York). Big cities needs the countryside to produce all the goods they consume, then they ship their waste out of the city to pollute our land, and they EAT our tax dollars while contributing next to nothing for our benefit in return. "

" Wine Shipping articles from 2005 "

" The big three are getting killed by production cost. One of the big causes is the waaaaay too powerful unions. Another is silly designs. For instance a certain part for a GM vehicle may have a dozen variations for different models like 12 different side view mirrors. While asian car makers use only one or two mirrors. "

" Ya FG there is some sort of weird NYS State law, regulation or tax that severely limits what can be shipped/bought out of state.

Yet another way the downstate democrats are sucking us dry. "

" LOL! I don't now why, but everytime I see Valerie Smith's name, I always call her Valerie "White"--I have absolutely no reason why...? "

" I drive an American car, out of a perhaps misguided sense of patiotism. My car is not paid off and I presently owe more on it than its worth. Both my children bought Hondas, paid them off, drove them for years, and the sold them for considerable amounts of money. The sad but true fact is that many of the Japanese cars are better made and last alot longer than American cars. Why? One reason is the American factory worker, making $75,000 a year for a job a well-trained money could do, getting paid not to work when there are layoffs, and enjoying benefits many of the rest of us can't afford. "

" Wasn't there something in the news a year or so ago about some kind of ban on exporting NYS wines out of the state, or some extra tax -- I can't remember the details, just that there was some hoopla and people felt that our local wines were not getting the chance they needed to sell more outside the state. Anyone remember the details? "

" Last year I bought a 2006 Dodge Caravan--I picked this vehicle because it had all the "buttons" I wanted, and the Honda models were way too costly! I also have a Kia Sportage, a great little vehicle! I must be half-patriotic! lol..

I think the wine labels are made that way to promote tourism in NY--if you love it and want more you need to come back!
(or have your family mail it you-as I do with salt potatoes)

Karl, I hope you have purchased girl scouts cookies-booths here are outside at almost every grocery store-I worked a booth with my daughter last weekend-we have 2 more to do in march. Sales end around the 16th..you CAN freeze thins mints for a year so stock up!
(eating samoas now) YUM! "

" Karl L- Am I missing something? I see a letter by a Valerie Smith, but none by Valerie White. "

" You want to see pathetic?--go over to the Letters section and read Valerie White's letter....sheeeesh! MAJOR issues!!!!!! "

" Hey Patriotic My Butt.....I drive a Honda built in America by Americans in Ohio. Toyota and Honda employee thousands of American workers. You never hear of any of them laying off workers, Why? because they build a quality product.

Maybe if the big three US auto makers got their act together people would go back to buying them with their hard earned money. "

" IGNITE is not a left wing organization. Like any other organization it is made of all kinds of political affiliations.

What is IGNITE about? Ignite is a diverse group of Young Professionals that use networking, social events and charity fundraising to encouraging job growth and community involvement in our regional issues.

Anyone that visit's this forum regularly can attest to my ant-left wing credentials!
"

" Hate to tell you, but foreign cars are NOT cheaper -- Hondas and Toyotas are well-built and last a long time, so they are even pricey when re-sold. They cost more than a Ford, Chevy or Dodge for a reason.

Like I said the other day, I think The Citizen was under pressure to remove or reduce Two Cents because so many posts were just sniping nastiness instead of discussion. Lately things have improved and we get real discussions and debates going, not just entrenched sides throwing insults and personal attacks at each other. "

" You simply have to read the ignorant drivel that's sent in to Two Cents to know why it isn't in the paper anymore. Having that nonsense in the paper every day was really bad for this city's image. Who were they putting at the top of page two every day? Some ill-informed dope whose talents and insight pretty much stop with dialing the phone (that Ignite comment is so bad on so many levels). The real shame is the Citizen took so long to identify and address the problem. If it was up to me, Two Cents wouldn't appear here either. Take this nonsense over to that hideous syracuse.com forum. "

" And any of these inmates would be an improvement over Georgie Bushboy. "

" Here we go again! "