" Regardless the page, naturelover, you are incapable of a civil discussion without resorting to nastiness, insults and bad language. Pretty sad -- you seem to really have some issues.

Most young women are not born knowing how to negotiate the tricky and dangerous waters of male-female relations in a way that protects their own self-esteem and the respect of their partner AND allows them to have healthy, free and open expression of their sexuality -- and the culture around us growing up is anti-conducive to finding a way. It takes a lot of trial and error. Many women never find a way, but I applaud their/our courage in trying.

You would reduce this struggle to an accusation of "undressing for turdholes" and put the whole of the blame on the woman. Such charming vocabulary: shows such class and respectful attitude towards women.

BTW, I HAVE looked at contemporary p0rn -- did a project on online privacy policies for a project in library school just a few years ago -- and I find it no different in substance than what I saw with the jerk of the short-lived relationship in high school (in the 80s -- I am neither quite so old nor decrepit as you seem to think). "

" As stated on my earlier post plz look on a search engine and open your eyes to 21st century p0rn. Stuff being made today is not like the 70's. The opening line "Yes, all women have those lingering childhood issues" set an idea that all females share this kind of warped sense of ones self which is so untrue. Perhaps men are visual but when and if the lites go out, trust me males find a woman attractive if she herself is secure. Maybe you undressed for turdholes. "

" Chris -- Fair enough.

Me? In a box?!?? LOL! I am so out there, I'm almost abroad. (Pardon the pun).

BTW, you missed my meaning -- I was being wise -- I meant (many) men ARE the childhood issue, NOT that I HAVE childhood issues (or not more than anyone else).

cm -- I don't think it's any secret that beef cattle are given steroids/hormones, and they are now adding stuff to the milk as well. There have been any number of studies linking the consumption of beef by American male teens (think McDonald's etc) and the low-sperm count, infertility and ED problems of American males compared to other countries where steroid-treated beef is not consumed in such quantities.

But that's a different issue.

As for p0rn, which was the subject at hand, I don't think it is a bad thing per se. It can be enjoyed between couples, or for people on their own and not be a bad thing if the relationships portrayed are respectful and equal.

The problem is that the majority of p0rn is not like that at all. Most of it is about women pleasing men, and specifically NOT about men pleasing women, so there is an innate inequality from the get-go. Beyond that, the portrayals in p0rn films is often that it is not only acceptable but titillating to denigrate women -- to put them in subservient and humiliating positions, to abuse them one way and another. That is not a healthy attitude to promote, and it's for this reason that many people like myself object. Certainly that's where I find myself equivocating when otherwise it wouldn't bother me at all.

I've seen it both ways -- in high school I went with a guy who would reference these films in terms of what he wanted me to do for him and how he expected to be able to treat me (that didn't last long!) but later in life, I shared stuff like this with a partner for fun. So I can see the harmless fun view, and I can see the damaging-to-women-and-esp-young-girls view.

BTW, those studies have gone both ways -- there are studies showing links between the viewing of p0rn and violence against women by some men, and a link between the viewing of p0rn and its use as a "safety valve" for men with serious problems. I don't think that's conclusive evidence either way.

Bottom line for me here, though, is that these "attitudes towards women" are still pervasive in our culture and they do have negative effects on women and their self-esteem through no fault of the women as individuals. In other words, these women don't "obviously need therapy" -- what's needed is a change in cultural attitudes. Things have shifted from the past, but not enough. "

" Hey FG: I'm just stating the obvious. Ms. Smith, by her own words, is resentful and angry because most men like attractive women and the gist I'm getting is that she feels she wasn't one of the popular girls in school. "

" FG, I wasn't a prom queen, but I was semi-popular. I agree that girls put way too much pressure on themselves to be like the magazine models. I was friends with many "ugly ducks" as some called, because I saw other things I liked about them personally, their beauty was on the inside. The "clicks" aren't all THAT, most people are only their friends for a reason, not for a true friendship.

-most marketed clothes are very skimpy (built in bras for a 6 yr old?)Plus I think the FDA has let hormones passed thru our food --high schools built like today are nothing like 20 yrs ago!

Men are visual people, I let looks/whistles go right to my ego-after 4 kids I need a boost at times! lol.




"

" puhleeze...So tell us FG why do u give your height, measurements etc of your anatomy freely on a website if you have 'lingering childhood issues' and agree with a woman who obviously s/b in counseling regarding feeling like a piece of the dreaded male meat platter? the only one that put you in your so called box is you. Too many woman have hangups about their sensuality and it is a shame. Honest stick with running the two cents blog will ya? "

" Yes, all women have those lingering childhood issues -- they are called the average adult male, who does NOT judge women based on the beauty within. I don't take such a hard-line on p0rn myself, and can see both sides of that issue, but Valerie is right about what it is like to grow up female in the United States.

I know *exactly* how she felt about being a bright woman in a co-ed classroom, being resented for "showing up" the guys, while girls they deemed "attractive" spent their time preening instead of showing a "challenge" to their dominance in the classroom. Try "The Classroom Climate: A Chilly One for Women" for the first in a series of sobering studies on gender dynamics in the classroom and how it pushes smart women into a box.

Too bad she didn't attend a women's college, because that's just about the best antidote to a female upbringing a woman can hope for in this country.

If you aren't female yourself, then you need to read and understand Joan Jacobs Brumberg's "The Body Project," or better yet, Elizabeth Wurtzel's "B*tch" (she also wrote "Prozac Nation"). If you can't or won't do that, then you really have no clue, nor any business judging how women get to be so lacking in self-esteem. It's not a personal failing -- it's a failing of our culture which is d*mned hard to overcome, and very few women ever do, not completely - because even when you can find the beauty within, you still live in a culture where 99 out of 100 people you meet, esp. men, will judge you on your looks.

Like Chris -- who is judging the woman based on his assumption that she isn't attractive. Man, oh man, can she rest her case on that one.

Remember the double-standard? Women are still d*amned if they do and d*mned if they don't, it's just that now people tell them they are free and equal, so now a woman is expected to shoulder all the blame and responsibility for being that way -- as if she could grow up outside the cultural environment into which she was born.

I've lived it, and so has most every woman you know, one way or another, conscious of it or not. I have happily known men who got it, and were understanding, and who had managed to get past the cultural norm, but I've known a lot more who didn't.

"She was an American girl,
Raised on promises [of equality, that a woman live in a world where she could be treated no differently than a man -- a promise not fulfilled],
She couldn't help thinking that there
was a little more to life,
somewhere else,
After all, it was a great big world,
with lots of places to run to,
yeah, and if she had to die
trying, she had one little promise
she was going to keep...."

I don't know how a guy like Tom Petty could hit the right chords to get across the way it feels to grow up American and female, and the words alone don't convey the full sense and feeling, but I am always stunned every time I hear this song. (And it makes me sick that Hillary has been using it as a theme song -- yuck). "

" Seek Professional Help!!!

There is nothing wrong with renting a little pornography from the over 18 room of the Family Video. Get over it!!!
"

" Your letter is very sad in that you obviously have lingering childhood issues with insecurity and paranoia. Beauty comes from within. The so called adult section of that video store is so small it barely eeks out a mention. Realize Palesh is from Utah, the land of uber religious cults with several wifes. If you really want an eye opener just type 'free p0rn' on a search engine and behold there will be more than you could imagine. But if you did not know of the existence of that on the web or of the room in the video store, why should it bother you? In addition dont think that p0rn is for men only - common mistake. "

" attitude adjustment needed -assumptions about men like that is using a very broad bush and painting them all one color "

" From the tone of your letter, I think you probably fell into the "latter" catagory you spoke of and didn't get the attention that you sought. You seem to be quite resentful of "attractive" women. "