" CM, reading and investigating a lot won't get you very far if you're looking at garbage to begin with. GIGO (Garbage in, garbage out) pretty much describes the fundamental logic involved. It is critical that attribution and motive is always considered before you can make a reasonable judgement. This also requires an unadulterated understanding of history.

To say your beliefs are not dependent on the "system" is ludicrous. We are all victims of this to one degree or another and no-one is immune. Think about it! "

" If anyone votes for Clinton, and she gets elected president, I fear for this nation. We are not ready for a woman president. I will then start to build my fall out shelter because she will cause the end of the world!!! "

" Thx again Mike Long(we didnt need that million dollars anyway) !!! "

" My opinions are not a product of the system-I read alot, I investigate alot, I always look deeper and deeper!

My family & friends know that if they need an answer or suggestion as to what to do next, they always call me-because they know I will "search & dig as deep as I possibly can"

I mentioned I went to a zoning meeting for the first time --last night---I assure you that by April 1st the next meeting I will be so informed to it all, and I will have loop holes covered, and I will shock the rich lawyers for the other side!

it's simply me, my intuition, my desire "to know". "

" cm wrote on Feb 6, 2008 9:24 AM:
" your right AJ I have yet to watch the videos-I will today though I doubt it will change my mind-a few before you have tried--like I said yesterday it only takes me 5 minutes and I am done-mind set! But I will give it 5 minutes"

That is laughable CM. Most of what you believe is already a product of a system that has lied to you so often how can you actually say that?

Another good video, and perhaps more important (and 4 hour or so video at that) is "Century of the Self". If you don't know about Edward Bernays you MUST watch this. Here is the link:

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=%22The+Century+Of+The+Self%22 "

" I dont know about Obama...I like his ideas, and I think he's a good man overall. I DO have an issue with the idea of him leading our country when he wont even participate in the singing of the national anthem...Something Fishy about that. "

" Do I believe they hate us for us freedoms-NO.
Personally I think we have toooooooo many freedoms-some of which I think the government/the people need to take back.

Begining in jail/prison NO RIGHTS AT ALL. If roaches are in your food and rats are sleeping on your cot-BOO HOO-guess you should have done the right thing the first time!

If you murdered MY family member witnesses/on video,well beyond the shadow of a doubt, I GET to choose your punishment-I have a grand oak in the front yard-lets get a rope!

As, Father Nacca used to tell me-not very catholic behavior/thoughts. My reply "everyone at hunter's diner said it first, should they go to confession too?"
"

" Iraq had nothing to do with 911. Bombing that country, leaving innocents destitute and removing Saddam Hussein from power was a personal vendetta conspired under the guise of "terrorism" by Dub Ya - I think he honestly thought money and people grew on trees and there was an endless supply of both. Spoiled moron. "

" your right AJ I have yet to watch the videos-I will today though I doubt it will change my mind-a few before you have tried--like I said yesterday it only takes me 5 minutes and I am done-mind set! But I will give it 5 minutes.
who else out there has watched them-add your coments in the AF edition. "

" Who said I was a fan of Bill Clinton, CM?

Clinton's foreign policy was also problematic, albeit not near the level of either of the Bush's.

Again, I never said terrorism doesn't exist or isn't a problem. It's unfortunate that we are the biggest exporters of terrorism in the world.

What you are seeing mostly is a reaction to our imperial foreign policy and support for Israel, when directed against us, and not manufactured by us. You don't really believe the line that they hate us for our freedom do you?

The truth is that what few terrorists there really are (besides the US gov't) hate us for our foreign intervention and killing and have made that perfectly clear. Our support for Israel, another terrorist state, is another reason.

Ask yourself this. If our foreign policy was really about fighting terrorism, and 17 of the 19 alleged hijackers were from Saudi Arabia, why didn't we invade them? They have a brutal and repressive government as did Iraq. This is only one out of dozens of examples I could give you.

When you start to see that none of this stuff adds up you should realize it's all a scam to steal your money, grab power, and dominate the planet's resources. It has LITTLE OR NOTHING to do with fighting terrorism or spreading democracy. That should be pretty clear to anyone who has been paying attention.

I can tell you still have not watched those videos I suggested. It could help you with your understanding of terrorism. "

" I am not a huge fan of war but sometimes War needs to happen!
When one thinks back to just 9/11 Bin ladin had been in planning for over 5 yrs under our noses! So his plans began in the Clinton Administration-maybe in retaliation for "98 bombings? who knows the mind set of a psycho!

But try to tell the local Auburn man-Morabito(?) that his wife didn't die under the call of a terrorizing psycho (hail allah) and we as a country are just going to ignore the actions & pretend it all didn't happen to begin with!
Very few families want to send their kin off to war, most service members are very proud of their jobs, everyone knows the risks.

Iraq KNEW we WERE coming, the innocent had time to leave. The allah COWARDS didn't even yell "heads up" OUR INNOCENTS didn't have a chance!

No matter how poverty ridden or hunger stricken a country is the USA will never underestimate a backwater country again!
"

" Thanks again, brew -- you sum it up in a nutshell.

Welcome, Mark, to the fray. Don't mind the loonies.

No one said terrorism doesn't exist, nor that thousands weren't killed in 9/11. I personally also felt we had to act immediately after 9/11, that we had to retaliate quickly and firmly.

But that was Afghanistan, not Iraq. Politicians have used that event to just keep spreading the violence to serve their own ends, whether it's profits for oil companies owned by their buddies, or mental illness that leaves them thinking they are still fighting Vietnam, or propaganda to manipulate the voters back home, or some other weird power trip -- none of it is good for the American people who suffer losses of lives and obscene amounts of money while a few fat cats lap up the spoils.

You take out one "big guy" terrorist, and three more are waiting to take his place. You can't win a war against terrorism. I don't have an answer or I'd be running for office myself, but I can see that throwing away our money and the lives of our servicemen and women just makes things worse, not better. "

" If I lived in a backwater country on the other side of the world and some big bully of a country with an arrogant idiot president was dropping bombs on my family and friends I would be signing up to set off bombs in your country in a heartbeat. I would target the same people that you killed. Men, women and children. And I would expect my reward in heaven. "

" funny AJ that you & karl seem to believe that its the Bushs' administration that only believed in terrorism and democracy for other countries when in fact:
Mr.Bill Clinton, as president,
1. 1996 authorized $100 million counter-terrorism agreement with Israel to track down and root out terrorists.

2. The Iraq Liberation Act of 1998

3. On December 16, 1998, President Bill Clinton mandated Operation Desert Fox, a major four-day bombing campaign on Iraqi targets. For evidence of weapons of mass destruction, evidence of Saddams war crimes, and to aide in democracy to the Iraqi people.

hmm, truth is others before BUSH knew that if it flies like a crow, poops like a crow, ITS A CROW! get your wallet out and arm your gun!
"

" CM, can you point out where I said terrorism doesn't exist? I don't believe I ever said that. What I said was that the "War on Teror" is a FRAUD.

Terrorism exists for sure. The Bush administration's war in Iraq is a perfect example of terrorism.

If you want to read a good history book that hasn't been sanitized, check out Howard Zinn's "A People's History of the United States." You'll have a better perspective on things and a BS meter that will be much more sensitive. "

" Tonight I attended my first Zoning meeting, I watched them on TV, but so much better in person! The people that attend are very strong in their convictions.
Just over a year ago this neighbor who is zoned AG with 8 acres & cows did this huge story in the paper on how his mother grew up with cows and for her he returned the land to its natural state as it was when she was a child. How his family will enjoy the nature, preserving it for the future was his dream!
Well mom died and he lied!
Now he wants to change to commercial/or 6 houses per acre so he can sell for 3 million.
NOT says 200 people so far in the area with the numbers growing by the day!
I could care if he sells and moves-BUT I don't want another strip plaza/bank/7-11 around the corner from me.
The schools are over-crowded as it is-another nearly 50 homes would overwhelm the area. What new buyers wouldn't know is right now any kids moving into the district could be bussed up to 20 miles away for a school that's not overcrowded. I bet the local realtors in a housing slump forget to mention that and many other issues to home buyers!
Buyer beware!
We get to continue our opposing views in April.


"

" sorry AJ but terrorism does exist! Will we be able to put a total stop to it, NO! but we can try to take out he big guys.
Maybe you should take a trip to Iraq or Afghanistan, take a mountain tour without US soldiers and let us see if you return??
If your not a concerned or worried and say it doesn't exist then pull out your passport! "

" I'm glad none of the posters on this board are running for office because most of these posts are misinformed, ignorant, or bigoted. "

" Hillbilly, since you feel so strongly about this nutty war, why aren't you over there fighting it? Another chickenhawk republican? "

" CM, crazy is also believing the 1000's of lies told to you by our media and government regarding "terrorism" and our desire for "democracy" around the world, in light of the facts. I'm not talking about Faux News opinion, I'm talking cold hard verifiable facts which are part of the historical record - something which the media has little concern for. "

" I love this quote... "That's what recessions do. They come upon you all of a sudden", what we didn't see this coming when Bush spent god awful amounts on this stupid war and the high gas prices? "

" Barack Obama is less polarizing and will bring the congress together? Please, between Barack and Hillary they have polarized the Democratic Party. With Hillary being the one closest to the center. Barack is being backed by the Left Wing Nuts. You think he's really going to bring together the full Congress? If you do I got a bridge for sale. And we all know that Barack would have been an after thought if Oprah had not suggested to him to run. I wonder how many strings she pull for him in the Left Wing Nut Center? "

" AJ crazy is when someone tells you if you wear this bomb and blow yourself and hundreds of others up I will give your family many riches, so you do it!

crazy stories:
our troops will be out in 18 months!
you will all will have affordable health care!
our borders will be secure!

"

" Karl, FG, do you get the feeling we are living in some sort of asylum that is run by the crazies? I know I do.

"

" In case you missed it karl,
cm wrote on Feb 5, 2008 8:36 AM:

" karl I must be racist? hahaha
I am fan of Tony Dungy, love Montel, fav childhood stories were of Harriet Tubman-racist pleeeeeeease!
Just because I look deeper into info, such as who people "hang" with,since I believe we are products of our environment-you yell racist?

Do You NOT have characters, qualities, traits, traditions from your parents and those you surround yourself with?
Why do you hang with "musical oriented people? For your love of music?
Why do you debate conservatives? For your beliefs of liberals?

Do you "hang with" convicts, rapists, child molesters, murderers?
NO-WHY? You are a product of your environment which doesn't include that kind of activity/persons in your lifestyle!
Have you held a guitar in your hand for 20 Yrs? WHY? your love of music must be strong! If not your guitar would be in a case buried in the closet!

How strong is Obama's love of church, church mottos, and church icons?
PS....
I have nephews & neices that I love that are half black & half white!" "

" The war on terror is not real, well tell that to the 3000 plus people who were murdered on September 11, 2001. You can also add to that the people who terrorist have killed over the years in other attacks. AJ you should just go back to smoking your pot and dreaming up how the government is so evil. Farmer Gal you should move to Iran and start studying the Koran. Don't forget to cover yourself from head to toe and don't talk to any men or you will be beaten. Remember, no one wanted to fight Hitler either. His Nazi Party ran the population. All Germans were not bad, but they followed Hitler or were shot. You do realize there are more Muslims around the world than there were Germans. Not saying that they are all bad. Just the terrorist ones who want to run the rest, like Hitler did to the German people. So Farmer Gal if the war can't be won, which I know it can, you need to buy a Koran and start preying to Allah. Or maybe you already do this??? "

" My gut tells me, just because one pulls-out doesn't mean the other wont get pregnant! "

" Thx again Mike Long !!!! "

" cm.....sigh....if your "gut" didn't tell you that the garbage being touted about Obama has the stink of fecal, yellow journalism, then I wouldn't trust it as far as I could projectile-vomit it! "

" AJ wrote on Feb 5, 2008 10:08 AM:
" Please watch these two videos and then we can continue the discussion.

The Power of Nightmares - part 1 of 3

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=881321004838285177


Operation Gladio 1 of 3

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4900756773650110959


You'll find links to the other two versions of each there.

The war on terror is a fraud, pure and simple, and muslims are being scapegoated. Do everyone a favor and don't buy into all the BS the government is dishing out. " "

" If you use the search box and put in "two cents" you can see past days' Two Cents comments with their discussions. This conversation is carrying over from the one dated 4 Feb 2008.

The indexing is pretty primitive, and they don't save it past about 2 weeks (you can get to the articles if you've bookmarked them, but you can't search for them any more, go figure), the results list is never in any logical order, but you can still get back to recent columns.

Hope that helps.

Meanwhile, I think McCain is a scary nutcase. I don't like any of the candidates, and I have a hard time making myself vote for people whom I find distasteful, but I'd drag myself out and vote for just about anyone else aside from the loathesome McCain.

BTW, I don't think we have any business still trying to control Germany and Japan anymore either, esp. since we change favorites abroad as the wind blows, first supporting, then smacking down one nasty dictator after another, sometimes coming around to support them again years later. It's got zippo to do with taking care of the people in our country, which should be our primary concern in all things.

The war on terror is not winnable. That's more than a lot of servicemen and their families can be expected to swallow, but anyone with a reasonable distance to give them perspective can see that. The nature of terrorism is such that you can't control it or beat it. You have to protect your own borders and not do stupid things to purposely antagonize half the population of the rest of the world, live and let live elsewhere, and don't keep sending our family members off to kill and be killed, to maim and be maimed, and to come up messed up in the head, suicidal, unable to re-adjust to life outside the war zone, etc. When you are in the service, you have to do as you are told, but that doesn't mean your leaders are right, or that they are not unbalanced themselve, or that they aren't working for politicians who have ulterior motives which have nothing to do with the good of the people of this country.

It's not winnable, it just perpetuates the violence, escalates the hostilities, destroys cities, countrysides, and families on both sides, makes the divide between more irreconcilable than ever, creates monstrous debt, bows down our productive sector to pay for it all, and serves only the interests of vultures. "

" I still do not like ANY of the ABOVE! is there a "dot" on the ballet for NONE?
Today should be an interesting day!

Did anyone read todays "dear abby"?
readers sharing the views on "whats wrong with the world"
maybe she will do a follow-up on HOW to FIX it!
"

" cm wrote on Feb 5, 2008 12:09 PM:

" As for Obama, I am not using religion as an excuse to not vote for him. I am using instinct and simple observation.
Everyone says follow your "gut". We teach our children to speak up if something doesn't sound right, look right, or feel right.
We teach our children to not follow gangs, not do drugs, don't drink n drive, not be friends/"hang" with bad people/influences.
Those that know me personally can vow that I am a great judge of character-and it takes me 5 minutes!
If I have decided mentally I don't like you in the first minute, I am nice to try a bit longer. After 5, you are either a person I will continue to have contact with or NOT!
Next, LIARS! I have dealt with so many of them -they are the easiest to read-especially when they throw in the ERR-UHH's! They simply cannot think fast enough!
Finally,my hero Judge Judy! Don't pee on me and tell me it's raining!

If Obamas influences for the past 20 yrs and present, in his personal life, are to be proud of then he/they should stand tall-they are not, they are hiding in the woodwork.
I despise termites! They eat from the inside, just when you least expect it,your foundation collapses!
"

" cm wrote on Feb 5, 2008 11:33 AM:

" I am not sold on the health care, even if it is per-income ratio. Just because I am healthy and working today, doesn't mean I will be tomorrow. Will the pay by income ratio/sliding scale be based weekly/monthly/yearly? Then what "government" thinks I can afford is much different than what I "know" I can afford. Such as, maybe I have 6 months to live and I choose to not have meds or doctors. So I don't want to pay for something automatically taken out of my check because I feel like bungy-jumping instead!
Many of us have already lost our pick of doctors thru HMO's/PPO's..a Medicaid writer wrote in last week about not having doctors in Auburn to treat "
"

" cm wrote on Feb 5, 2008 11:31 AM:

" The war on terror is NOT a fraud. Maybe some the reasons we BOMBed Iraq could be> We will honestly never know the truth. Are you trying to tell me that the video of a man being beheaded was a fraud? or the many bodies found beheaded were frauds?
I have very close friends who are in the Army serving there right now--their daily lives seeing this is NOT FRAUD!
In watching the debates, Hillary was honest about the pullout issue-there truly cannot be a SET timetable, there are too many variables to put forth first for the safety of our people & safety of the innocent staying behind. If you caught her statement after that saying when the new President gets into office they will get more info as to whats REALLY going on. More classified info that is! She atleast admits not knowing all the facts an EXACT DATE is not humanly possibly at this time!

"

" the comments are from this mornings discussion -looks like others have not carried over. "

" Will the Citizen's editor for two cents please explain why comments see to just disappear off this site and there is no continuity of the evolving argument?
For instance, who the hell is AJ "responding" to, and where the heck is that comment?
Hillbilly, go play with your little green soldiers. McCain is a delusional fool who just wants to has built his whole identity around being a POW and now wants to use the presidency to validate and justify it. He's a nutcase, period. "

" What John McCain talks about is the way we are still in Germany and Japan 62 years later. And if we need to stay anywhere it will be in the Middle East. If not then Mothers with 5 year olds be ready to send them to war in about 15 years. That's if the fanatical Ayatollahs haven't attacked the U.S. before that. Iran's President wants to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth followed by the USA. And his Ayatollahs are running him. The war of terror is what we fight today in Iraq and Afghanistan. But, don't believe me and relive WWII. Like Iran's president says the Holocaust didn't happen, it was all a lie. "

" Hillbilly, you go ahead and continue to watch Fox if you want to remain ignorant.

As for those "secular progressive" channels, are you referring to Link TV or Free Speech TV? Watch those and you may learn something you don't know.

Surely as all hell you can't be referring to Msnbc, ABC, NBC, or CBS, which are nothing more than corporate and government propagandists.

FG, good points about the health care program. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised for a second if it was written entirely by the health care/insurance/pharmaceutical industries for their benefit and not ours.

I personally do not trust Hillary one bit as she seems too deeply into the pockets of big business. I do not trust Barack either for that matter, but I'll hold my nose and vote for him anyway now that Kucinich and Edwards are out. "