" Cm, your habit of posting irrelevant facts and attempting to draw squiggly lines connecting them to the heart of the matter just shows your inability to reason and underscores your inability to grasp the more-important UN-googlable facts BEYOND the periphery of an argument. You cut-n-paste "facts" AS THEY MAY BE NOW without being able to see the TRUE import of exactly WHAT those alleged "facts" might mean, or what consequences they will have. Farmer's Gal is right--I don't know why I waste my time trying to educate you, as your sole purpose on this site seems to be to play the diehard-Republican/Bush-supporting foil. "

" well brew if it's crap in your world-then you best get your boots on! The facts on Auburns revenues are public documents-FACTS! Grants are a way of life for our country and have been long before I/YOU were born-GW didn't just invent them! Do you use a debit card? Do you pay bills online? Do you shop online? Do you send emails to family & friends instead of writing a letter or using the phone? Do you recieve Text messages for you football scores? Do you use a microwave? We have ALL said we don't have enough TIME! Has monies been wasted by ALL our government officials? Do inmates get college degrees? Do death-row inmates get placement on heart transplant lists/How about sex-xhange operations for inmates with tax payers money??? YOU CALL IT CRAP-I CALL IT TRUTH! "

" I think Mr. Quill needs to quit now. Mr. Quill's fireman had too much over time. Mr. Dempsey needs to quit. Mayor Lattimore is the right man for the job. "

" Crap limit?!? I think all of us except karl L and Brew 1234 will agree that these two must walk around with a device that holds their incredibly oversized heads up so they can continue to act as the "police" of this two cent blog. Must u two boys ALWAYS stroke each others egos AND comment so negatively and act like u are the know it all of the world? When u board a plane on your many "world" travels, etc was the cabin empty because NO one but the lofty karl travels abroad - u may be surprised that your neighbors on this blog know more than u think they do. Just wonder what minds ol' karl is destroying as he taught school children. "

" Karl -- my thoughts are hardly brilliant; I'm just more calm about the issue. I feel as strongly against the war as I hear in your words, but have found that people tune a person out if one rants. If you get yourself labeled a "crank," you lose your credibility and your opportunity for others to hear and honestly consider your message. (And goodness knows there are people on the Citizen forums who only understand their world in terms of putting labels on people). Other people would disagree with my apporach and that's their right. Heck, maybe I am even anesthetized and just don't know it. ;-) "

" I was recently back in my hometown, just outside Detroit. I left there in 1982, as the auto industry bottomed out. It isn't much better today in terms of employment and economy. Auburn is a mini version of something similar. ****####**** War debt is not helping anyone here at home. Sending our troops abroad is not helping protect us locally from attacks, but rather, tends to stir up more hatred and resentment against Americans and inspires more than deters a desire to do something bad to the American people. ****####**** cm -- I do agree with you insofar as I would say that there is also much corruption at a local level, but I don't think for a minute that our leadership at the top is any more honorable -- less so, and more critically so, since more people suffer from their arrogance. The checks and balances which were built into our government have been largely circumvented by clever politicians down the years so that a President can indeed "go to war" without first stopping to get the consent of Congress -- he just calls it a "police action" or some such rather than formally declaring war -- but tell that to Vietnam Vets (The Library of Congress subject heading has been "Vietnamese Conflict" not "Vietnam War" because of the lack of an official declaration of war, but people fought and killed and destroyed and died just the same as any other war). ****####**** And President Bush gave himself -- declared by fiat, not approved by any checking-n-balancing action -- a bunch of "emergency powers" last spring that most people missed entirely. It's an analogy I hate to use because it is so over-used and often misapplied, but this is how Hitler took dictatorial power. He got himself legally elected, then gave himself "emergency powers." ****####**** That said, I don't blame the President alone. He has plenty of supporters among the politicians in Washington and elsewhere, and he has support for this or that policy even among those who would NOT call themselves HIS supporter. In general, there are all kinds of slimey influences pushing our politicians this way and that which have nothing to do with the good of the people or the country -- so much so that the whole system is corrupt and dysfunctional. ****####**** I also agree that the average American hasn't time (or inclination) to think about any difficult issue in any depth -- and we are encouraged not to. We are purposely encouraged to be distracted and have short attention spans. It's tough to fight it. But there are still a few of us out here who manage to eek out a little thought-time here and there, and what we discover is nothing but deeply disturbing. ****####**** I understand that cm and I will never agree on the subject of the war, because a "war on terrorism" is just plain not winnable, but we are still uncovering points of agreement along the way. I just like to see the conversation carried on without name-calling, reactionary knee-jerking and without at least some attempt at getting something constructive out of it. (Still and all, nobody died and made me King of the World, so if anyone wants to rant and carry on, go right ahead -- it's your Constitutionally protected right -- use it while we still have it). "

" cm, your "explanation" there about why Bush's numbers have gone down is both amusing and pathetic. And you're wrong about who I blame. I don't only blame Bush. I blame the Neocons and their mad, deluded dreams of Empire. I blame the Vice President and his Lies. I blame the Religious Right for voting in an ignorant-as-sheep block. I blame the idiots who gave Bush the first term. I blame the Democrats and ALL the cowards up there on the Hill for not having the GUTS to defund this travesty and finally put an end to it. I blame the right-wing liars who spin endless lies to cover Bush's illegal actions and crimes. And lastly, I blame people like you, DD, Chris Van Coulterrd, Dan W and all the other skeered followers who willingly fall for the deceptions and spin because you hate "The Left" more than you love your country. "

" The 2 cents online posts should set a "crap limit" for each contributor. After you get to your crap facts limit you can't submit a comment for 24 hours. Unfortunately cm you can't make a comment for the next 6 months. "

" Karl you can't stand FACTS can you! let's see cut child insurance--YES the hundreds in Louisiana that are on Ritalyn and receiving SSI for ADHD they don't have! Student loans-YES have these rich doctors pay them back like they signed and promised 10 years ago! Cut education YES-no inmate needs a college degree! DID I vote YES to no-child left behind-YES! My older daughter was in a class of 42. My 8yr old IS on a class of 18. Will my taxes go up for that vote-YES-do I care NO-WHY? The odds of a better education is 1-18 NOT 1-42. "

" Vote Budelmann, if both police agencies, the auburn FD and the prison guards endorsed him, what more do we as the voters need to know. That information is priceless!! "

" Very good, cm. Your googler obviously works and you are a true master of the cut-and-paste factoid. BIG DEAL! All of those things are being paid ON CREDIT, cm! Geez, THAT's what you don't understand! That "grant money" isn't actually THERE--it's just being added to the deficit! So when the countries that now in all actuality "own" us start pulling in their bonds and demanding payment, we'll be luncky to have enough in the National coffers to pay for he Cogressmans' lunch tabs! I could go and run up my credit card and fill my house with a lot of nice things and people would say "Oh MAN! The economy aint hurtin' him!"--but when it came time to pay the bills, then I'd be in the same state that the country will be in in a few years. Look--Bush has already said he's gonna cut a few million young children out of health care; don't thnk it's NOT because the money is going to go toward the stupid war! The price tag, by the way, is THREE BILLION A WEEK! HOW LONG DO YOU THINK THE COUNTRY CAN CONTINUE TO RUN SUCH A TAB??!?! GET YOUR PROUD HEAD OUT OF YOUR %#^$%#!!!! "

" Farmers gal-you are right in many aspects. Karl and I AGREE that money is being wasted. We disagree on what/where. He can only blame one person-President Bush-where as I begin my blame at the nearest person to me in government--MAYOR-then I go up the line! Reality is the president doesn't get nothing by the House & Senate..so if the majority voted "for a bridge to no-where in Alaska" and Alaska recieved the funds--it WAS NOT JUST because President Bush said "I demand Alaska get funds for the useless bridge!" The difference between this war and WWII is the fact that during WWII the WHOLE country felt it and dealt with it. In todays war, we all go about our daily business,we watch the daily news at yell Horray when Saddam was captured and we sometimes cry when a soldier is killed, But then we continue with our dinner, kids homework,baths and off to bed. In 2004 elections, Bush won an outright majority of the popular vote. Why do I think his numbers have gone down since them? SIMPLE we are Americans, we want everything done fast. We don't have enough time in the day to do our own stuff: cook meals=we love microwaves, read books=pop in a CD and listen to it in your car, write checks=debit cards, shop for groceries=pizza delivery, shop for gifts/pay bills/speak to your sister=ONLINE/emails, spend time with kids=they are the schools problem during the day and the polices problem at night. We wanted this war in a timely manner-BOMB-and done! But thats not how it all works in government-we all hear "red tape" daily. Personnaly I'd rather drive over pot-holes in Auburn due to the cities fault and not a NUKE thanks to Osama! "

" As you know, mystikal, I already have a life--how much did YOU spend on booze this weekend? Get a life--really! "

" Just to name a few since President Bush has been in office: Virtual instruction The Citizen Wednesday, March 9, 2005 1. Cato-Meridian elementary students took a virtual field trip from their classroom. Cato-Meridian is one of three local districts opening up classrooms to a whole new interactive style of learning thanks to a $1.5 million federal grant. 2. Planetarium undergoes change: via bonds and federal grants, the construction of the Atmospherium-Planetarium.1968. BUT in 1979,(Bush Not president),Federal funds had long disappeared. Now under NASA grant/Federal funds the Planetarium added telescopes,etc. 3. South Street Reconstruction ($3.5 million) & North Street Bridge($1 million)=Federal and State program will provide 95% funding under the NYS / FHWA Five-Year Capital Projects. Followed by Lake Avenue Bridge Rehabilitation and Painting, and the Genesee Street Reconstruction ($8.1 million); 4. Congressman Walsh secured nearly $2.5 million dollars for the upgrades to the Water Filtration Plant in order to meet the new EPA water clarity regulations. 5. The “Connector Road Project” phase 1 is under construction in 2005 with a $2 million dollar NYS Multi-Modal grants by Senator Michael Nozzolio. 6. The city has also completed a new recycling facility with a $400,000 NYS DEC grant. 7. The design phase of East Genesee Street Phases 1&2 is complete and we anticipate construction in 2006. The design phase of York Street is also underway with $4.8 million dollars appropriated in the 2005 Federal Transportation Bill for the construction phase. NOW you tell me Auburn has sooooo suffered due to the war funds???!! "

" "cerca trova"="seek and you shall find" In Auburn's revenues for 2005-2006 the pie chart says real-property taxes @ 36%; non-property taxes @ 28%; State/federal GRANTS 15%..NOW-2007-2008 lists real property @35%; Non-property @ 28%; State/Federal GRANTS @ 19%..the last time I went to school the "new math" 19% was/is higher than 15%! So in just Auburn tell me how federal monies due to the war has gone down???http://ci.auburn.ny.us/Public_Documents/AuburnNY_Webdocs/2007.08 "

" I've never read so many insulting, derogatory and nasty remarks toward people who are trying to effect change in Auburn. Why not try addressing the issues!! "

" Wow karl, you changed my life from this day forward I am not going to drink another sip of alcohol. You are entitled to your opinion and all, but you go way over the top with some of you comments. Good for you and your travels. Get a life. "

" "Oktoberfest" in Auburn?! What--like people in this town (or most others) need another excuse to kill their brain cell? Did you ever stand outside a mini market on any given day at any given time of the afternoon and watch all the money that people WASTE, toting out cases of beer at 12, 1, 2:00 in the afternoon? Yeah--Oktoberfest--just what we need! (I've been the REAL Oktoberfest twice now on business trips, and it's the place to be if you're looking for a lot of sick-drunk people!) "

" Even Germany doesn't have an Octoberfest in October. Its in September. "

" I agree Karl. The evening of Harvest of Sound was a nice night out. And very entertaining with great imaginations. Kudos to the Vanguard, the band boosters and everyone that got the opportunity to check it all out. "

" I went to see one of my students last night at the "Harvest of Sound" band competition, and I have to say that Auburn band looked and sounded GREAT! Congratulations to all the members and to their staff who put together that wonderful routine! How inventive and fresh and well-executed! BRAVOOOOO!!!! :) "

" You're right, Farmer's Gal. I over-reacted to cm's post--she is, in essence, stating the same thing I am saying. It's just that I have seen her defend aspects of this war before, and I' am so 500% against everything that this war stands for that I DO have a "hair trigger" about it. I am duly chastened! Thank you for your brilliance and insight on this matter! "

" I really think people need to stay the heck out of their neighbor's yard. You have no right to DICTATE how a person is exercising the GOD GIVEN AND CONSTITUTIONALLY GUARENTEED RIGHT to enjoy his or her property!!! "

" Mike Quill should avoid the rush and quit now. We all know he is not a prototypical Marine. No true Marine would run away because people were critizing him. "

" Why doesn't Auburn have an Octoberfest in October? "

" cm, now don't take this wrong, because I don't think I am disagreeing with you in essence. I agree that "our" government has indeed long since ceased to be answerable to us, the voters, i.e. that the "consent of the governed" as it is put in the Declaration of Independence, has gone out the window without any discernible consequences for the corrupt individuals and system that squander what they suck out of us. That is indeed deplorable. Money gathered from tax payers to pay for this or that noble cause ends up going elsewhere and it sickens me as it does you and many others. They used to call that "taxation without representation" and it was a motivating factor in a revolution some 200+ years ago. Instead, our government spends trillions a year, taking from the sweat and labor of our working and middle classes, to pay for a war which cannot be won, and against the wishes of the majority, while people go without any health care and young people wrack up student loan debt out from under which they will never be able to crawl. Karl and cm -- if you could each just stop a second and breathe, then think -- you are both intelligent people, much more articulate than many another poster on this website, but you both have such hair-triggers and go off so easily without seeing that you are not "against" each other on this issue. Ban the exclamation point from your posts for a day, make yourself take at least an hour to force yourself to try to see what the other is saying and be pleasantly surprised to realize you are not on opposing side in this issue. Yes, our government takes money in taxes and spends it in ways that are not for the reasons they told us they were collecting them -- Karl, would you disagree? Yes, programs that need money are not getting it because it is being squandered on all kinds of not-related bs. The reason I take issue with the both of you on this is because I AGREE! You are both right -- this is a travesty, and something needs to be done to make our government once again accountable to the people. But they can count on getting away with it so long as they can keep all of us at each other's throats, wasting time and energy and eloquence (as well as bile) going at each other when at the core, we are in agreement. That way we never pull together and do anything effect to make change. Stop. Breathe. Think. The three of us agree on this, and, I think, so do many others. What can we do -- constructively -- to make change for the better, if we can stop sniping at each other when it is as pointless as the war on which our government wastes trillions of dollars and thousands of lives? It is not cm's fault this happens, and it is not Karl's fault this happens, and we agree that what is going on is dead wrong -- so, grown-up friends, what's the next step for us? Forgive me, I am not omniscient, and I don't have answers any more than the next guy -- but I see two people just banging their heads against each other when they could be joining forces to improve our world and I just couldn't hold my tongue. "

" YOu know, cm, honestly now...you sound like a total "I've-got-all-the-answers-for-everything idiot! Your speciously argued and weakly-argued rant here is just about the height of financially=ignorant! How the %#&@ can you make such ludicrous statements?! You know, I'd hate to see the state of YOUR finances. As usual, you opened your piehole without doing a shred ot research. There have been reports for the last several years--YEARS!-- of how municipalities ALL OVER THE USA are suffering from cut budgets and lack of governmental aid! Cities cutting police forces, not getting help with infrastructures, not having money available for grants, of the Social Security pool being raided to pay for this damned war! You know who's REALLY gonna feel it? YOUR KIDS! AND their GRANDKIDS! Because the dollar is just about WORTHLESS (.99c to the Canadian, $1.40 to the Euro!!!)because of the bonds and funds borrowed from OTHER countries to pay for this stupid war! THis war will be the debacle, the disaster which devalues American currency and TOPPLES AMERICA as a world power--EXACTLY as the USSR fell! HA! Don't even worry about the fake "War on Terror"--Osama's ALREADY won!!! "

" Dippy, you should be glad your neighbor is "disturbing" your ears mowing his lawn. Condemn a person for having a sense of pride when it comes to his property? If he didn't mow, you'd complain about the "slum" you live next too! wear ear plugs or go shopping! "

" If the monies spent on the war in this "real" world were NOT used for the war do you really think it would be spent on roads-college educations-and medical coverage for all?? the answer is NO! WHY? Because Americans are simply tired of higher taxes overall-Secondly, we are tired of taxes for one goal and used for another. We don't want to pay more taxes for roads when the TOLLS for these roads keep going up/promised fixes will be done in year 2045..We don't want to pay higher taxes so INMATES can get a better education than we can afford our own children! We don't want higher taxes for medical insurance when INMATES on death row can get a heart-transplant before a law-abiding citizen could! Since we cannot predict 2045, A trillion dollars/stopping terroists & nucleur bombs, might ensure we even have roads, colleges, and PEOPLE who need medical insurance! You are a FOOL to think IF a trillion dollars suddenly "appeared" that ALL americans in ALL states would have roads-college-medical---the TAX payers would NEVER agree to that! "