" Actually, I was thinking of a point on which both Karl and cm concurred back on a Two Cents page (I think) -- that being a good person is not dependent on having a religious faith or vice versa -- a point on which I also agree. "

" Of course it was fun but I am not done! I have to read up on your books that you profess to be the writings of all writings! When I finish my "homework" I will return.. "

" Words of wisdom to be true, Farmer's Gal. And you=re right--I will probably never change cm's mind. But the difference is, I believe in things that can be proven; I have no "Faith" in things that are unproven. I can believe in intangible things like "Love" because it can be both physically explained (through chemical secretions in the brain) and because I can and have personally and definitely experienced it in ALL it's gory detail and beauty. Such can not be said for "God". That is not to say that I do not believe that OTHERS sincerely believe that they "experience God", but to tell me that they are experiencing "God" means that "god" has had to have been proven in the FIRST place. "Love" is proven, even if it does not have a tangible shape; it still has qualities that can be measured, physically detected, and predicted to a large degree. "God" does not. Anyway, at the risk of going round and round, I will remind all that this argument started in my attempt to rebut a critic of Murray Lynch--a man whom I have NOTHING in common with theologically,yet who is a man whom I sincerely believe "gets" what it truly means to be a "Christian" IN THE BEST SENSE OF THE WORD. Larry Maguet took it upon himself to opine that Murray's beautiful exegesis of what it means to be a "Christian" was inauthentic and false, and did so by selectively quoting the Bible. THAT drives me CRAZY! I'll shut up now...thank you all for your participation! Wasn't this FUN?! "

" you are right farmers gal--we won't ever agree!And alike in the fact we are very stubborn. If karl can respect at his parents house then why not respect totally? I am sure when he travels to other countries he RESPECTs their laws -which are of the majority just as I would. So why should kids whom believe and state a prayer at their high school graduation being punished? It's back to a simple thing-I pray you close your ears, You watch crud on tv, I change the channel, you like rap I change the radio station. I am now beginning to think that is why IPODS were invented-hahaha. Religion will always be debated-has in the past-will be in the future! Just like politics! "

" Just a side note (not wanting to mix it up or anything): I am a non-Christian who observes Christmas as part of my cultural heritage, as a tradition (sometimes we call it Yule, but usually we just stick with the commonly used name Christmas). When my kids were little, we had Ostara at Easter time as well -- all the celebration of renewal and the coming of spring without the religious trappings. I hope I won't offend anyone if I say that I think that Karl and cm have more common ground than they might think -- they've just both gotten themselves backed into opposing corners and are focussing on the things on which they won't ever agree. That's also why I try not to let myself get sucked into conversations on religion (though I am not always successful). "

" BTW, cm--here is a link to a summary of "Caeser's Messiah" You'll have to type it in, starting with http and ending in html-- http://www.caesarsmessiah.com/summary.html-- There is a concise and remarkable explanation of the false assumptions based upon Josephus, and the certainty in "odds" that Atwill's conclusions are correct. Read it if you dare. "

" I sit, keep quiet, and ENDURE...respect, ya know? "

" And when your parents pray at the christmas dinner table or the easter dinner table so you HUSH and bow your head or leave the room to not hear the prayer? "

" "...never answer yours"??? OK, cm, I will indulge you here. Because I am not really one of those annoyingly dogmatic, proselytizing Atheists, I DO indeed celebrate "Christmas"--but not in the way you might. I say "Merry Christmas" to people on the street; I let the "spirit of the Holidays" infuse my life and home; I send generically-themed Holiday cards; I put up a "Christmas tree" (but no manger) and I do the whole gift thing. I smile a lot and feel closer to everyone, and go visit my parents, etc. See, the difference is that I'm not threatened by the realization that most people do indeed believe in the myth of Jesus' birth and so I am not wont to "rain on their parade" or feel the silly need to push my "agenda" on them at a time when Peace and Goodwill is supposed to reign! Now, look at the phony "War on Christmas" that the R.R. has been pushing--GREAT MONEY-MAKING tool there! Did ya notice? Oh yeah, everybody's getting FAT and RICH off of marketing "Reason for the Season" shirts and mugs from the gullible and insecure!I'm sure you'll see some great hypocrisy here, but if you insist on it, it will only prove your inability and unwillingness to see me as anything more than just what you imagine me to be--some desperately tortured atheist who can't be happy unless everyone believes exactly as I do-which is simply untrue. I seek to educate and stimulate and question and learn. Nothing more. As far as Easter; nope, got no use for it. One big holiday a year is good enough for me. I still give the chocolate and do the colored eggs thing with my parents and nieces and nephews, but I don't observe the Birth of Spring as anything more than a smile on my face when March starts to warm into April. It's always good to see the Earth renewing and refreshing and waking from the long cold slumber... "

" funny how we answer your questions but you never answer ours! do you clebrate christmas and easter? "

" cm, please don't get me going on a list of notable, historical people who were both religious, CHRISTIAN, and HORRIBLY DESPOTIC, EVIL, CORRUPT, IMMORAL, AND MURDEROUS--I could be here all day! Hitler was a Catholic too, ya know. "

" DD, you're the only one of the trio here who really gives me hope of reaching one of ya's! Although you're wrong about abortion being used as "mostly birth control". I KNOW what you're alluding to; that many inner-city youth don't use birth control, that they just wait until they get pregnant and then just get an abortion, but while that is true in many cases, it is NOT the primary demographic of women who get abortions, If my memory serves me corrcetly, the biggest percentage of women who get abortions are, believe-it-or-not, middle-class WHITE women! Abortion is often used by this group to end pregnancies which are quite often the results of failed contraceptives or in cases where the pregnancy would be unsustainable, unhealthy for the mother, or simply inconvenient in that time period; the assumption of an important new position at work for instance, or when a divorce is impending. It's really not as cavalier as you imagine it. Secondarily, the much-maligned "late term abortion" made up a MINISCULE amount of abortions, and most of these WERE IN CASES OF SEVERE DANGER TO THE HEALTH OR LIFE OF THE MOTHER! Please, research it and learn for yourself. Just don't go to the "Operation Rescue" site to do it ok?! :) "

" Chris, I have heard the charges of the "Cold Goddess of Reason" before, and I'm sorry, but I just don't agree AT ALL! "Reason" as a guiding principle is and WOULD BE as cold as Derbyshire imagines her IF ONLY you're the kind of person who holds onto the misconception that "Life without 'God' is meaningless" That is, of course, what religious people feel and say, but ONLY because they have built their lives around that false frame-of-mind and have failed to fully develope their understanding, empathy, and compassion toward their fellow Human Beings! (Kinda like cm there!) Chris, do you REALLY BELIEVE that "believing in God" is some sort of prerequisite for Morality, Loyalty, Happiness, Affection, Pity or Hope? DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THAT CANARD?!?!? Because let me assure you!--I have not one SHRED, not one HALF-OUNCE of "God" in my life or my world, and yet I am AWED by the beauty of Nature! I am selflessly DEVOTED and FIERCELY LOYAL to my precious and sweet girlfriend. I HOPE for a long and satisfying life with her (but am not naive enough to simply sit on my butt praying for the Lottery numbers to appear in a "vision!"). You yourself and DD both have been my frequent targets for what I believe to be YOUR cold and unsympathetic attitude toward the less-fortunate. And you can accuse MY Secular Humanism/Atheism of being shallow?! I see Hope and Possibility and Beauty in the good people around me; in the ability of HUMAN BEINGS to challenge and change the cruel and arbitrary world if they so desire! You see Chris, that's the difference between Religion and Humanism! Religion REFUSES to recognize the random, cruel, arbitrary fact of Life--that there really IS NO "PLAN", no "MASTER DESIGNER" who pulls the strings and "we just don't understand why" Religion is indeed an opiate, a panacaea, putting forth a halcyon-haze of false security in the Lie that there's a Heavenly Father looking over all of us like we're "all his children". This does NOTHING in the end but foster a childlike quasi-dependency on imaginary benevolent beings--which, in truth, I have NO PROBLEM in people believing in, but when they start telling ME that I'm "inferior" because I don't share their fearful delusions, and furthermore, start trying to legislate laws that will affect ME and my constituents, then I'm gonna speak up LOUDLY! I'm just SICK of Religion ruining this county lately! Secular Humanism says this--believe what you want to believe; practice it in your own home. If you don't WANT to have an abortion, DON'T! If you don't WANT to have sex with your same sex then DON'T! LIVE AND LET LIVE but DON'T HURT OTHER PEOPLE IN THE NAME OF "RELIGION"!!! Legal Abortion is NOT forced abortion! Same-sex marriage does not "turn" anyone gay, or "push" homosexuality! I mean, come on, you'd have to be a mental midget to SERIOUSLY believe THAT! ANyway, Chris; I wish you knew me in another capacity to see that I am really quite a happy person in "real" life; I just feel that here are too many who feel EXACTLY as I do, but lack the courage to speak out against the new assault of Christian proselytization and fundamentalism that has brought so much damage and worse, HYPOCRISY to the world lately! (ask for examples? I got dozens!) "

" BTW, cm, I never preach about Atheism to my students! That's not what they pay me for, and I would not be so unprofessional as to cross that line and forget my place as a MUSIC teacher! "

" cm, I do not know why I bother with you, but I guess that I'm hoping in vain that I can penetrate the shroud of Ignorance that envelopes you like a cold fog...are you SERIOUS in citing "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" , et all?!?!?!?You're really busting my chops now, aren't you?! If not, then you're really, REALLY reaching for straws here!! I HAVE READ BOTH, by the way, and know all about the "San Graal" and the Cathars and the Merovingians and Father Saunier. The contentions of Baigent and Leigh make for entertaining speculation, but there are far too many desperate leaps of faith and impossibilities of logic to take that book seriously, or their assumptions. Gosh, have you been SUCKERED! LOL!!! (I'm seriously laughing!) However, it is extremely relevant and telling to see how apparently eagerly and wholeheartedly you've bought into this huge farce--hmmm,..desperate for a "new spin" on your tired old spirituality cm? Knowing what you've already written about yourself, I think that you so ardently defend your precious "Jesus" because there's some sand castle within yourself that you've built around Jesus, as if his existence somehow lends meaning to your own. Without the possibility of him, you might just not be able to cope? I feel sad that your life must be so unfulfilled that you need to believe in Jesus to give you hope of something better in the afterlife; standard religious fare, but sadly and ultimately illusory! Anyhoo--cm, I have read the "sources" you have cited, now let me challenge you to read MINE--read "Caesar's Messiah" by Joseph Atwill-arguably the most important theological book published in the last 100 years. Read "The Jesus the Jews Never Knew" by Frank Zindler. I have also, by the way, read "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel, and was completely unimpressed with his weak arguments, which were basically the same as yours--oh, so-and-so said he was here, so it MUST BE TRUE! cm, you are desperately out-of-your depth here, and I would kindly advise you after this latest "Holy Grail" citation to surrender the field before you further embarrass yourself! You are hopelessly outmatched by my learned luminescence! "

" Religious zealotry has caused more death and suffering than all natural disasters, plagues, famine or any diseases, crime or accidental death. That includes the deaths inflicted by Christians as well as other religions. "

" Follow karl's thinking: Madalyn Murray O'Hair She choose to enlist into the marines because she believed in war. She had an affair she had a child out of wedlock with a roman catholic man because he wouldnt divorce his WIFE- she took a false name-MURRAY-she tried to defect to the Soviet Union-she married Richard O'Hair who disappeared from her life in the '70's-THEN her SON converted to Christanity and became a preacher! Many SPECULATIONS from 1995-2001 as to her whereabouts-only to be found killed by an employee! Her own son who wanted nothing to do with her quoted as saying she lied-she cheated-she stole monies- and she was just plain EVIL..HMMM.a moral/valued person to follow the beliefs of???? More so-hypocritical to put down Guilianai for the same as you say! "

" Karl--you do make a valid point--I do not believe that religion should play a part in govenment. Take abortion for instance. I do not agree with using abortion as a form of birth control. It is rarely used as anything other than that. I am not like many other people, I believe that it is a moral issue, not a political or government interference issue. Now, to the woooooooo wooooooo. It does make more sense when you hear me do it. I am pretty good in the sound effects dept. But, seriously, do you understand how calling the FD for a fire that doesn't exist, and studying someone you feel never existed just to debunk him parallel each other? Anyway, I pray to God that my atheism goes away. "

" Here is something that John Derbyshire (National Review Online) wrote that I thought was fitting to this topic: Does it not occur to you liberals, not even for a passing instant, that by purging all sacred images, references, and words from our public life, you are leaving us with nothing but a cold temple presided over by the Goddess of Reason — that counterfeit deity who, as history has proved time and time and time again, inspires no affection, retains no loyalties, soothes no grief, justifies no sacrifice, gives no comfort, extends no charity, displays no pity, and offers no hope, except to the tiny cliques of fanatical ideologues who tend her cold blue flame. "

" You say you dislike that "we" pass laws on our beliefs--WELL in your own little village of Auburn--since you have the time-1.count the churches. 2.go door to door and ask/survey who believes in A GOD and who doesn't. 3. while you are door to door you can kill 2 birds: hand out business cards promoting your guitar lessons with "Non-belief" preaching for FREE. 4.NOW you can sum-up the results--both on religion and how many customers pay you--- you can see the reason laws are passed are because you are the minority-since I am not reading about you in Forbes -that speaks for #3 itself! "

" the only thing you are doing is turning around text to suit your needs, which you attend that God-believers do!-for every ONE PROOF you have stated that Jesus wasn't here I have stated PROOF HE WAS! NEW BOOKS: The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail published in 1982, The Messianic Legacy published in 1987, The Da Vinci Code in 2003 and of course googles own Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia! AGAIN THEY ALL SAY JESUS DID EXIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "

" since you are the "learned" one--SHOW ME ancient text that says HE DID NOT EXIST! I can show you old text that says Columbus discovered America and I can show you NEW text that says he didn't..either case HE WAS HERE! "

" OK--first ,cm--I know what you're inferring, but it doesn't stand. The multitude of sources which YOU had stated were simply repeating the errors of what was conventional beliefs at the time, based upon NOW-proven falsely altered documents. MY sources correct and supersede those. Do you understand?!?! Geez! CHRIS--I agree with you about the "interpretation" part, but an ad hominum attack is not advancing the argument one bit. I AM angry at the misery and harm to this country that the Religious Right has wrought in the last 7 tears....read my post in today's "two cents". I do not feel "threatened" by others challenging my views--why WOULD I??? But I hear the same, recycled and incorrect arguments based on bad information and corrupt sources being proposed as Truth again and again, and for years the Religious have leaned heavily on the social taboo of talking against silly, harmful Religious beliefs whilr simultaneously pushung THEIR views, and I'm just not having it anymore... DD, I'm not ignoring you--you crack me up! WOOOOOOOO!! LOL! It makes no sense however to discuss Abraham's motives; I merely made the salient point that you can easily dispute any Bible-thumper's nauseating habit of quoting the select verse in the Bible which girds their position by qouting an equal and opposite verse. That's what really fries me! These people push their agenda's not by truth and force of intellect, but by the cheap and cowardly tactic of using an alleged "God"'s words which are supposed to end the argument against what are sometmes very serious issues--not so much this one here, but Women's Reproductive Rights, Gay Rights, and Education Excellence--I'm sick of seeing the Religious Right dominate the conversation and then hide behind Religion to mask their bigotry and ignorance. I mean, REALLY, GUYS, do you think I do this for my own amusement? Don't you think there are more important things for me to do? There IS!--but I am also aware that while millions of "regular Joe's" have had "better thngs t do", the R.R. have been VERY BUSY abd VERY VOCAL changing the very fabric of this country. And "Jesus" is where they all seem to start. Well, if that's their "trump card" then if he NEVER DID EXIST, WOULDN't IT BE IMPORTANT TO FIND THAT OUT?!?! "

" You forgot to spell check at 2:40 something you mouthed about to: "karl L wrote on Sep 2, 2007 2:01 PM: " Iowa--You'd do better to read a grammar schoolbook than your silly bible!!! ALSO--"SPEECH"--with TWO "E"'s!!! " "

" Of course the Bible contradicts itself. It was written by many different HUMANS inspired by God's word, and at many different time periods and locations. I really think The Citizen ought to ban most religious letters. I'm sick at looking at the extremist and close-minded drivel from BOTH sides. "

" Although these are not my exact written words I believe they are the best explination without getting into a debate on the interpretations of each individual chapter and verse of the Bible. Throughout history, billions of people in the world have attested to their firm, core convictions about God's existence--arrived at from their subjective, personal relationship with God. Millions today could give detailed account of their experience with God. They would point to answered prayer and specific, amazing ways God has met their needs, and guided them through important personal decisions. They would offer, not only a description of their beliefs, but detailed reports of God's actions in their lives. Many are sure that a loving God exists and has shown himself to be faithful to them. If you are a skeptic, can you say with certainty: "I am absolutely right and they all are wrong about God"? -By Marilyn Adamson (everystudent.com) "But now faith, hope, and love remain--these three. The greatest of these is love." 1 Corinthians 13:3, How do you argue with that? "

" Now, Karl, you again twist things to benefit your argument. Abraham was being directed by God to make the sacrifice. He was showing submission to God when he intended to sacrifice his son. The ACT of sacrificing his son was merely an act--no more, no less. His faith in God would have gotten him into heaven. Likewise with your other example. In both instances, they had faith in God. They were not just doing things randomley to get into heaven. WOOOOOOOOO WOOOOOOOO ding ding ding! "

" Are you ignoring me Karl? Again, I ask, who are you trying to impress? The fact that you don't believe in God/Jesus makes it funny that you'd waste so much time telling so many people you don't believe, and neither should they. WOOOOOOO WOOOOOOOO here come the fire engines to put out the......what no fire? You must be the most insecure person I've had the pleasure of debating with. Why don't you write a letter debunking the myth of the tooth fairy? It would make as much sense. "

" KARLS WORDS:Speaking of, and REPEATING the errors of that which One may have heard or read does NOT constitute "Proof"! Are you understanding this yet???! " CM'S WORDS: EXACTLY MR.LEARNED of 12 wasted years of your time! so what part don't YOU understand! SO do you & the girlfriend celebrate Christmas? Easter? "

" This debate is very much open to interpretation, there are points that support your argument and there are point that support Mr. Maguet's side as well. Christianity has given hope to millions of people and does far more good than not. "It so because I think it is so." Jeez Karl, you seem to feel constantly threatened and come across as angry when others question your position. IMO, you have a deep fear of being wrong. The fear of losing control and resulting hostility is always a sign of needing the experience of deeply being loved but not knowing how to get it. Alas, anger to get what you want is a cry for love being armed with tools for war. "

" cm, so a lot of texts mention Jesus. So what? A lot of them might mention him as being "the deity in which Christians believe"! Furthermore, teachings like Buddhism would consider "Jesus" as one-and-the-same with "Buddha", which is their "All-Knowing god"--simply one more name for the same ONE God. Islam does not recognize Jesus as anything more than a prophet, but its citation of him is ultimately meaningless, as Islam was started AFTER Christianity had already "triumphed" through blood and sword. Speaking of, and REPEATING the errors of that which One may have heard or read does NOT constitute "Proof"! Are you understanding this yet???! "

" Leon, sorry to see you misunderstood my letter. This thread originated with a letter of blatant religious intent, and my letter was an attempt to point that out and illustrate the FUTILITY of proselytizing a person's Religion in print when the fact is, most Christian sects don't even agree amongst THEMSELVES what their God is saying! And even if they do, the Bible is SO CONTRADICTORY that you can defend almost ANY contention if you find the right verse! Proselytizing Atheism? No, I did not intend that. My ending point just underscores the ultimate errors in Maguet's misunderstood contentions! "

" Oh tsk, tsk, now Jerry Morgan Sr; let's put it right out in the open here-ARE YOU ACTUALLY INFERRING THAT I"M GAY?!?! LOL!!! I'm sure that my 3.5 yaar girlfriend would be most amused by that! Anyway, that type of slur is EXACTLYwhat I would expect from a Conservative who lacks the acumen to contribute an intelligent rebuttal to my points! Be aware that there are issues of Libel involved with your comments if you continue in that regard. Typical! Anyway. your pathetic misunderstanding of Morality is evidenced by your view that simply believing in a god somehow imparts an automatic morality to a person, and that without such belief, one is lost. Again, I refer you back to Mother Theresa's plight; that of having lost Faith in what she once believed in, and yet selflessly continuing on with her Charity! The fact is, my "higher authority" is my own Conscience--and it doesn't "forgive me" if I just say "Three Hail Mary's"--so it's a MUCH harsher judge and than your "God"! Geez, Jerry-- Senator Larry Craig was ALSO a big "bible-thumping" homophobe, and look what happened to him...anything you want to tell us???!!! "

" Leon, its not so much atheism as it is wishful thinking. You see Karl lives the "alternate" life style, as such, he is praying there is no God to condemn his soul to damnation. So if there is no God, one is free to live like one wants, because there are no rules from any higher authority. A Sad life style and a sad existence "

" " Karl--you asked me to read differential info- Karl L wrote on Sep 7, 2007 5:12 PM "Consider the uproar that "The DaVinci Code" caused recently in this day and age of instant communication and google and the Internet, television, etc. It took a long time and a lot of work by The Church to debunk the notion that Jesus has kids, was married, etc." I CONSIDERED and ALSO ADD: today there are atleast 30 different ancient texts covering Hinduism, Buddhism, and Islam-that very specifically mention Jesus, before and after crucifixion-that have been quieted by the catholic church. When writers, that were historians/theologians/eyewitnesses from various religions and backgrounds speak of a prophet/messiah/Jesus/God-Why would they MAKE UP a fictional character? He was a carpenter that traveled, spoke of good deeds, love, hope, belief, and to bring peace to the world! " "

" Free speech for me, but not for thee, eh? It's ok to try to keep christians from having letters printed in the paper espousing their beliefs, but it's perfectly fine to print letters proselytizing about atheism, which is what this letter is doing, there's no denying it... no typical long winded response to deflect the facts can hide that truth. Do hear that whistling sound? It's the sound of your credibility flying out the window. "