" P.S. Can't help it if those with short attention spans can't take in more than a sound-byte's worth of info at a time. Stretch your brain cells once in a while -- it's good for you. "

" I wrote a response earlier, and it didn't get posted. Sorry I didn't keep a copy. Karl, I agree in so far as morality does not come from faith. However, I would say only part of it comes from good parenting. There's another share which comes from inside the person him- or herself. I have known a few "bad seed" kids who had very good parents, parents who raised other children to be terrific adults, but there was just something not right inside that one person which no amount of good parenting could cure. I have also known some terrific people who had terrible parenting. I'm one for striking a balance between nature and nurture. But you notice there is no mention of faith or religion in my theory of how people come to be good or bad. I see the two things are independent. This is because I have known wonderful people who had faith, and wonderful people who did not; I have also known horrible people who thought themselves marvelous Christians or having some other faith, and horrible people with no religion. If some people find they need the crutch of religion to keep them on track, I have no problem with that. Faith has been a wonderful thing for some people and more power to them. But, as you point out, faith has also been used for all manner of cruelties and wrongs, from those inside the small inner family circle, to those on a grand, global stage. I do not believe these things are inherent in religion itself -- those things come from the individual human beings perpetrating the wrongs. Quite often, religion is self-contradictory -- you have the cruel Father of the Old Testament in total contradiction of the pacifist teachings of Christ in the New Testament just as one for-example. For myself, I never understood how people of faith are sometimes able to reconcile these kinds of things -- but then, I don't have faith, so I admit that I don't get it. Here's the thing for this conversation though -- I am hearing you. I am hearing the first-hand damage you have seen and experienced at the hands of those who used religion and faith as a psychologically damaging bludgeon applied to children. This does happen -- far too often -- and it is not a good thing, but I do not personally believe this is the unavoidable outcome of religion. Whether Jesus existed as a real person or not (let alone whether he existed as a divine being or not), when it comes right down to it, has nothing to do with how people use the story of his existance subsequently. There are many good-hearted people doing fine and kindly things in the name of religion right alongside those doing sick and terrible things. I think if you and I sat down, we'd probably agree on a lot of the nitty-gritty points about some of the things that also strike me as rather sick or at least scr*wed up about some religious teachings, but somehow, many people still find much true goodness in their faith and I won't knock them for it. Mostly I find it really comes down to the people, not the religion itself. So I say "Pax." Take the terrible experiences and try to make something good and positive out of them whenever you can -- don't let them make you bitter. That part is your choice and I wish you well in it. "

" sorry ARG I do have a job--I am an Area Supervisor who happens to be on break right now-not meaning a 15 minute break but work a few months on then a few months off. If I had to read the citizen's classifieds NOW that would be a 15 minute break plus still have time to do the wash! hahaha "

" DD and FarmersGal, I'll tell you WHY it matters whether it "MATTERS" if you believe in the myth of "Jesus". Because "morality" does NOT come from "Jesus" or Religion. IT comes from good parenting, PERIOD! It is IMPLICIT in the belief in "Jesus" that Humankind was, and is in need of "salvation"--that people are, from the day they've been born, in some sort of "cursed" state, needing "redemption" by some ridiculous and obscene fairy-tale about an impotent and cruel "Father" who, for some inexplicably vague and never-defined reason, decided that he needed to hang his own son on a tree and kill him as a bloody sacrifice to feel all cozy about "saving Humankind"! I mean, REALLY! AM I THE ONLY ONE WHO SEES SOMETHING "SICK" AND PRIMITIVELY INHUMAN ABOUT THIS FANTASY?!?! Do you read some of these letters in the Citizen by the most passionate "Christians" who tel us how depraved, "sinful", flawed and "unworthy" we all are? THEY"RE TEACHING THAT TO THEIR KIDS TOO! And that's a horrible and psychologically-damaging thing to teach ANY child! I know, cuz I was raised as a Catholic, and was told all that abusive nonsense before utterly rejecting it! Humankind should be exalted--and hypocrites who allege an imagined "direct line to God" (Rev Ted Haggarty, Congressman Larry Craig, Jimmy Swaggart, George W Bush, etc) should take their "Jesus" and admit that, in the REAL WORLD, GOOD PARENTING AND GOOD EXAMPLES make a person "moral and upright" and that in the end, a belief in Jesus really counts for VERY LITTLE--AS EVIDENCED BY THEIR OWN EXAMPLES!!!! "

" The Citizen truly needs to limit the length of comments here. Anything longer than a four or five sentence comment send a letter to the editor people and get it in. While you are at it, check out the classifieds and apply for a job, you might find it occupies your time. "

" Oh brrrrother, cm....you bought into that "Davinci Code" nonsense AND YOU EXPECT ME TO TAKE YOUR ARGUMENT ABOUT THE ALLEGED HISTORICITY OF JESUS SERIOUSLY???!!! Thank you, cm, for showing me who I am really dealing with! (DD, maybe a better question would be "Karl, why do you spend your time arguing with someone who believes in silly red herrings and too proud to admit they might learn something from you?!!)ANYHOO-cm, the only "PROOF" of ANYTHING in your latest posts was that you are desperate to cling to your outdated information, and too proud and ignorant to allow yourself the opportunity to learn anything new about your most cherished beliefs, because without your "Jesus crutch" you probably would not be able to function in your world. That's ok, I've debated numerous Jehovah's Witnesses on my front porch and have seen the same terror in their eyes when the tiniest sliver of recognition of Truth penetrates their darkness and ignorance. The only reason I want to know whether he existed or not is because I am interested in the TRUTH! Unlike you, cm, I am prepared to follow that truth wherever it takes me, not desperately cling to my assumptions and OLD research! Oh uh....what was that you said about Nazareth again? And Tacitus' interpolated writings? And the acknowledged, proven corruption of Josephus? Yeah, exactly! NOTHIN! You contented yourself with citing a list of alleged "facts" about Jesus from your feel-good evangelical pamphlet, and then talked about Pilate and Caiaphas and Simon Peter--as if that PROVES ANYTHING? Then you chide me for not having "Faith", which is THE BELIEF IN THINGS UNPROVEN!!! CAN YOU SEE THE RIDICULOUS IRONY HERE,cm??? Telling me that some guy named "Jesus" was executed by Pilate is like telling me some guy named "Heinrich" was killed in WWII!--it was one of the most common names in ancient Judea! IT DOES NOT PROVE THAT THE FINDING A NAME ON AN OSSUARY MEANS THAT "JESUS" WAS THE "SON OF GOD"!!! The only thing you've "proved" is that there have been many people like you who were desperate to "prove" Jesus' existence by writing in his name into actual historical documents, and many others like yourself who were simple enough to trust the very same people who for years said there were no pedophiles in the Church! I'll tell you what,cm...you cling to your myths and illusions and pride and ignorance, and I'll go on trying to educate poor pilgrims like YOU about the lies they've been told by people who will sell them theological bridges in morality swamps! "

" farmers gal--I agree with you too..to me it really doesn't matter if you believe in a GOD or not-YOUR MORALS AND VALUES and how you live/lead your life is the bottom line! NO religion should be PUSHED onto anyone. ONE should decide for yourself! Do you remember the old school of telling a story? You began with a fact but by the end of 26 students there was this huge story of 90% untruths?! No matter what you believe: FACT-Jesus lived.FACT-caveman lived.FACT-dinosaurs roamed.FACT-indians were here.FACT-pluto IS in the solar system. SINCE WE ALL KNOW THIS--the real question is HOW DID THEY GET HERE????????????? "

" Thanks, cm -- I do read this column regularly, but I usually glaze over when people start arguing religion, so I missed the previous conversation. The two on this page were so long and seemed so out of place that it prompted me to comment. It doesn't worry me an awful lot whether there were or weren't a Jesus (human or divine) once upon a time -- the effect of BELIEF that there was such a one on mankind (for better and worse) ever since has been profound. (To take a page from Feuerbach -- whom I once had to read in the original German, groan). "

" Karl--I don't blame you for starting this thread. In fact I rather enjoy it. You're a smart guy, and I like debating with you. But, the question remains--why do you spend so much time debating something that in your mind does not exist? Why pay it any mind, and let those who choose to believe, believe? "

" God Bless ALL-on this 9-11 anniversary! "

" We took your words-step by step as you asked myself and DD--we PROVED to you that Jesus DID exist! Now to go beyond 1950 which some, I allready stated answers too..but heck will bite..DaVinci Code..Even there it states JESUS lived for he was a MAN. What the church disputes is that he married and fathered children.--as for me I DO believe he married and fathered children and somewhere NOW are living descendants--I think you should spent more time and monies on getting DNA --I so want to be sure 100% that YOU are NOT a descendant! Now DD , wouldn't that be a headliner for the citizen!?!!! hahaha "

" Isn't there a Jesus blog somewhere you zealots can banter and not bore us to death? "

" Just one question, DD--if Jesus were proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to be untrue, if they had found the "smoking gun" that proved it, and even the Pope couldn't deny it--wouldn't you WANT to know? SHOULDN'T the world KNOW? Or would you just want to continue on in ignorance while politicians,pundits and Popes continue to co-opt his name and gravitas to push their agendas? BTW, I didn't start this thread here, so don't blame me! "

" Hot off the press Clinton round two. Pretty sweet for a couple crooks - Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton's presidential campaign said Monday it will return $850,000 in donations raised by Democratic fundraiser Norman Hsu, who is under federal investigation for allegedly violating election laws. "

" Karl, again, I ask you, who are you trying to impress? If Christ never existed, why do you waste so much time researching him, and trying to debunk him? Its almost like calling the fire department to a fire that doesn't exist. I don't believe in the tooth fairy, but I don't spend time researching it so that I can try to prove everyone wrong. Oh jeez--I hear the firetrucks again, must be Karl. "

" cm and karl, you think writing so much people will actually read it? I personally won't because it looks like a bunch of garbage. bluefininthians: Jesus says don't write so much. "

" Religion, the opium of the masses.... "

" KARL MUST HAVE NOTHING TO DO BUT KNOCK JESUS "

" Because Jesus has a good sense of humor;) "

" Cause Jesus took too long inventing electricity. He was also a history major so wasn't good wit that stuff! "

" farmers gal--karl asked me for proof sept 6th--if you've been following letters to the editor-it was in response to "Murray" letter. I do hate to go on & on BUT karl seems to enjoy his lengthy gibberish-I thought it was only fitting! I am sure he will dispute "your" knowledge of Jesus too. "

" I apologize to those out there who regret having this page dominated by this unrelated argument, but I was attacked and my integrity questioned and I will not NOT respond. It is regrettable, and I hope that "cm" will respond in the appropriate forum--the Murray Lynch letter! I will check!) "

" cm,...sigh...SIGH!!! I will "cite the books I have written and the physical research I have done" when YOU cite your own--fair enough?! And, I will make the same charge against you; that your ability to "google" your old and out-researched data on Jesus' historicity does not prove what you wish to be true. Anyway, the one thing I do NOT have the time to do is to re-type the entire argument here; anyone who's interested can simply use the "Search" feature on the upper right of the page and type in "Murray Lynch" and then click on "Time for USA's Christians to get Their Act Together" I stand by my research, period--which I have been doing for 12+ years--how 'bout you, girl? I challenge you to read the books I have cited there and watch your "facts" melt before the NEWEST, MOST RECENT AVAILABLE research! You're working with OLD arguments and assumptions. Josephus has been completely debunked, not once, but TWICE! (--don't always trust yer googler!) Anyhoo--let me let you in on a theological secret, cm, just for starts...the town of "Nazareth" NEVER EXISTED in the time of your alleged "jesus"'s life! That is a fact! It is UNKNOWN to the Talmud, the Hebrew Bible,Josephus and ALL pre-Christian biographers and historians! The "Nazarene" was a religious sect much like the Essenes, or the Siccari! It didn't come into existence until c. 4th century, if memory serves me correctly! Additionally, Christian of the early periods and especially the Middle Ages were NOTORIOUS for "writing in" references to Jeus in ancient manuscripts--there are dozens, if not hundreds of examples--and the works of Josephus are considered to be ONE OF THE WORST so corrupted! The works of Tacitus are considered corrupted and interpolated by later Christians desperate to give some historical weight to the argument for Jesus. This is not MY opinion, cm. This is referred to in several books that I have read. I'm sorry that you think that an intelligent way to "prove" your point seems to be to cast aspersions and doubts on MY research, and to claim some unsubstantiated veracity as to solely YOUR sources, but MY sources supersede and contradict your sources; they are the LATEST available in the evolving argument and are NOT IN THE BUSINESS OF APOLOGETICS! Your argument is a perfect example of "attacking the messenger because you don't like the message"!A parting shot--why do you think the Church felt it necessary to go on silence non-believers, to burn "heretics", to ban and burn books and documents, to stamp out competing religions, to basically spread Christianity by the sword and the torch? BECAUSE THEY KNEW IT WAS A LIE! Get back to me when you've got something to add that's newer than say, 1950... "

" I just want 2 know if Jesus was so smart why did it take so long to invent the computer "

" I think it's time for the Citizen to block these crazies that go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on! "

" I missed the part where Karl L supposedly denied the existence of the historial Jesus? I see a wise-acre remark about Bush being a false prophet, and apparently it was this post which brought on two lengthy posts (even longer than my own!!!) working at the historical facts. One need not have any Christian or other religious faith to feel confident to assert that an extraordinary individual, now known as Jesus Christ, lived in the Middle East a couple thousand years ago. As cm notes, beyond a certain point, the rest is faith, and, frankly, you either have it or you don't. Faith doesn't make you better or worse than anyone else. How you live your life and how you treat others determines whether or not you are a good person, and that is not contingent upon faith of any particular brand -- not in my experience. "

" The following facts about Jesus were written by early non-Christian sources: • Jesus was from Nazareth. • Jesus lived a wise and virtuous life. • Jesus was crucified in Palestine under Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius Caesar at Passover time, being considered the Jewish king. • Jesus was believed by his disciples to have died and risen from the dead three days later. • Jesus’ enemies acknowledged that he performed unusual feats they called “sorcery.” • Jesus’ small band of disciples multiplied rapidly, spreading as far as Rome. • Jesus’ disciples denied polytheism, lived moral lives, and worshiped Christ as God. Some German higher-critical scholars in the 18th and 19th centuries had questioned Jesus’ existence, pointing out that such key figures as Pontius Pilate and the chief priest Joseph Caiaphas in the Gospel accounts had never been confirmed as real. No rebuttal was possible until the mid-20th century. Archaeologists in 1962 confirmed Pilate’s existence when they discovered his name included in an inscription on an excavated stone. Likewise, the existence of Caiaphas was uncertain until 1990, when an ossuary (bone box) was discovered bearing his inscription. Archaeologists have also discovered what they believe to be Simon Peter’s house and a cave where John the Baptist did his baptizing. Karl you and others like you will continue to deny all proof of Jesus' existence be it Christian or non, Biblical or Historical, Ancient or Modern.....it is your nature to disbelieve. If today Jesus stood in front of you and said "I AM" you would not believe. FAITH IS A GIANT LEAP YOU WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO TAKE. This is exactly why you so want to believe He never existed at all. If He never existed He never could have performed any miracles and therefore Faith in a Higher Power absurd. How convenient . Refer back to paragraph 2. I cannot prove if Jesus did all that was ever written about Him because it was written by man and man as a species is flawed. I do know however that there is a preponderance of evidence to support the existence of Jesus. If He was not a deity, He was at least a man of great teaching and wisdom who MANY feared and SOME embraced. And today ... His teachings and wisdom are feared by SOME and embraced by MANY. Yale historian Jaroslav Pelikan declared, “Regardless of what anyone may personally think or believe about him, Jesus of Nazareth has been the dominant figure in the history of Western culture for almost twenty centuries. … It is from his birth that most of the human race dates its calendars, it is by his name that millions curse and in his name that millions pray." PERSONALLY I BELIEVE "

" Karl.....Karl.....Karl.................. The more I read your self-righteous babble the more it comes to bare that only through your own proclamations of being such a "learned" man that you rigorously expose your own ignorance. Having read others opinions and being able to recite them does not make you the self-proclaimed expert you fancy yourself to be. I am curious .... you believe yourself to be an expert on Jesus being an "invention" .... so far as to call this a fact.... Please tell me what books have you written on this topic? Other than reading OPINIONS of others, what physical research have you done to support your ideas..... and in what circle of Historians, Scholars, Experts, or Theologians has your research been recognized. I certainly am not so arrogant as you to say I know the truth about Jesus....but you have gone so far as to say he never even walked the face of this earth ... quite a claim for someone who was not there or even in the ball park. So let us review the written evidence .... 1. Flavius Josephus was a noted Jewish historian who began writing under Roman authority in A.D. 67. Josephus, who was born just a few years after Jesus died, would have been keenly aware of Jesus’ reputation among both Romans and Jews. In his famous Antiquities of the Jews (A.D. 93), Josephus wrote of Jesus as a real person. “At that time lived Jesus, a holy man, if man he may be called, for he performed wonderful works, and taught men, and joyfully received the truth. And he was followed by many Jews and many Greeks. I know you claim Josephus' writings to be debunked .... convenient for those who wish to disprove Jesus's existence. Amazing speculation about real documents almost 2000 yrs old. 2. His Jewish opponents had the most to gain by denying Jesus’ existence. But the evidence points in the opposite direction. Several Jewish writings also tell of His flesh-and-blood existence. Both Gemaras of the Jewish Talmud refer to Jesus. Although these consist of only a few brief, bitter passages intended to discount Jesus’ deity, these very early Jewish writings don't begin to hint that he was not a historical person. I know ....... actual writings.............discounted by speculation...... 3. One of antiquity’s greatest historians, Cornelius Tacitus, affirmed that Jesus had suffered under Pilate. Tacitus was born around 25 years after Jesus died, and he had seen the spread of Christianity begin to impact Rome. The Roman historian wrote negatively of Christ and Christians, identifying them in A.D. 115 as “a race of men detested for their evil practices, and commonly called Chrestiani. The name was derived from Chrestus, who, in the reign of Tiberius, suffered under Pontius Pilate, Procurator of Judea.” I know ..... not an eye witness.....nor was the writer Plutarch. "His Life of Alexander", written some 400 yrs after Alexander, and based on others accounts is accepted as the primary account of Alexander's life.But regardless of the time gap of several hundred years, historians are convinced that Alexander was a real man and that the essential details of what we read about his life are true. Cornelius Tacitus.....I know .... actual writings...discounted by speculation...... starting to notice a pattern here...... Oh yes, Tertullian and Clement not citing Tacitus' account of Jesus ... because it was left out does not mean Jesus did not exist .... mere omission is not proof of non-existence. New species never recorded before are discovered every day....did they just spontaneously spring up? 2000 yrs from now how many history books will include your name .....I seriously doubt any...does this mean you never existed...of course not. Yet somehow you discount all written proof secular or non, and all historical,religious and social impact to claim He never existed. If we weighed the evidence for Him or you 2000 yrs from now ..... Jesus would be a shoe in for me and you would have never been. AND THE LIST CAN GO ON........ "

" Thank you to all those coaches who are working so hard to coach football to our youth. Thank you for charging across the field to yell at a player and subbing only some of the players while leaving a few out on the field the entire game. We wouldn't want a player who is only 5 or 6 years old to make it out of the FLAG FOOTBALL league who wasn't only the best! "

" Does anyone happen to know the number for Highland now? Someone said it was in the paper a few days ago and I can't seem to find it anywhere. I called the citizen and they said it was the same number they've always had but when I call any of the numbers, they give me the busy signal. If anyone could help me, that'd be great. Thanks! "

" I would assume the cases get postponed due to conficts with the attorney's calender. There is also postponements for the accused to get treatment. DWI is about the only crime you can be accused of where guilt is almost automatically assumed. "

" "...beware the false prophet"....BUSH?!?! "