" Meant to say Iranians in previous post. Sorry for the confusion. "

" Almost forgot, while it may be true that Saddam gassed his own people (the hitorical record is not entirely clear whether or not it was Saddam or the Iraqis) if he did he did so with our help - the US supplied him with the gas. Just a minor historical footnote that gets overlooked. "

" Chris, the point was that if you are so bent on delivering democracy to the Middle East, why stop at Iraq? Those other countries I mentioned have no more democracy and are harsh repressive states. I'm simply trying to point out that our foreign policy has NOTHING to do with bringing about democracy. In fact, I would argue the opposite. We love dictators who ill bend to our will. "

" Well AJ, since this is the first time you've broght that up, I'll try and answer the best I can. Kuwait actually likes us for freeing them from Iraqi control in the first Gulf War, the United States is currently Kuwait's largest supplier of goods and services, and Kuwait is the fifth-largest market in the Middle East. So they are off the list. Jordan has consistently followed a pro-Western foreign policy and traditionally has had close relations with the United States. They also signed a nonbelligerency agreement with Israel (the Washington Declaration) in Washington, DC, on July 25, 1994. Jordan and Israel signed a historic peace treaty on October 26, 1994, witnessed by President Clinton. They are one of the few stable countries in the Middle East and they are helping us in the GWOT. So they are out. Saudi Arabia, IMO, is like your buddy having an affair with your wife. They'll smile, shake hands and do business with you all the while they are preaching Wahabbism. I have no great love for the Saudis but money talks and the U.S. is Saudi Arabia's largest trading partner, and Saudi Arabia is the largest U.S. export market in the Middle East. They generally keep their crazies contained. Yes, IMO their form of government is oppressive and we are dealing with the devil. But, they haven't attacked their neighbors nor have they gassed their minorities. I guess the old addage "keep your friends close but your enemy closer" applies. "

" So AJ, I'll ask you again - If we're in Iraq for oil, why isn't this admin pushing for us to invade Saudi Arabia, Jordan, or Kuwait? Think there's any less oil in those places? Think again. Dolt. "

" AJ, if they don't want us all dead or converted, then why do they keep telling us that? "

" So Chris, I'll ask you again - why aren't your pushing for us to invade Saudi Arabia, Jordan, or Kuwait? Think it's any better in those places? Think again. And how is that threatening us? Dolt. "

" AJ, all I have to say is wow-just wow. Is your last name Ostrich by chance? Are you at all familiar with the strict interpretation Sharia Law that the extremists follow? Lets see, in accordance with hadith, stoning to death is the penalty for married men and women who commit adultery. Being hanged for being gay. Under Sharia law non-Muslims may be subjected to Sharia Laws however it codifies the treatment of dhimmis in relation to the Muslim state and in cases of over-lapping jurisdiction. Dhimmis are distinctly second-class citizens in that they cannot serve in public office, cannot testify in court and must follow certain rules meant for living on Muslim land and under Muslim protection (such as paying the jizya). We've all seen how women were treated under the Taliban. I though gays and women's right were a cornerstone of the liberal movement? If you try and convert from Islam to another religion-death. Girls in school? No way. A woman gets raped? Her fault. Write a book critisising Muhammed? Fatwa for death. Draw some cartoons? Fatwa for death. You cannot reason with people who worship death and IMO thats exactly what the extremists do. They want us to submit and I, for one, am unwilling to do so. "

" When are you guys going to finally get it through your thick skulls that this is all a complete fraud? They do not, I repeat, DO NOT, hate our freedoms. They do not want us all dead. They DO NOT want us meddling in their affairs and exerting our influence. This is about the control of oil and power in the region. The overwhelming majority of Iraqi's WANT US OUT! You need to stop listening to those pathological liars, and start listening to people who know what they are talking about. Here is one link. http://www.truthdig.com/interview/item/20070320_scott_ritter_robert_scheer/ "

" Karl: Maybe we're smart enough to try and learn from history on this one (Iraq) and not leave the people there to the wolves. Your rational is "people are getting killed anyway" so why not just leave. Interesting take on things. I hear the left clammoring about saving Darfur. Guess what: we would have to send in troops to fight the Janjaweed and our troops would be injured or killed in the process. So by that logic, are the people in Darfur more important than the Iraqis? You can't have your cake and eat it too. As far as your desparaging remarks about the military, you don't have a clue as to what you are talking about. I don't have a disdain for emotions, on the contrary actually, but you need actual facts to back them up which you don't produce. And by the way, it was Bush's agenda to get N. Korea to the table by putting the screws to their already poor financial situation thru UN and US sanctions. Seems it worked. "

" Going to war is mean, so we shouldn't do it. That person is poor and it would be nice to give him money, so the government should do it. Somebody wants wants to come into the U.S. illegally and it would be mean to say, "no," so we should let them. I am nice because I care about global warming! Those people want to kill us? But, don't they know we're nice? If they did, they would like us! Bill has more toys/money than Harry, so take half of Bill's money and give it to Harry. "

" Uh, yeah Chris, regarding your John Hawkins quote; you ALSO quoted Ann Coulter--D'OH! Integrity out the window! And listen to you and Booboo, you undisguised hypocrits, you. "A lot of people would still be killed if we leave" PUHLEEEZ!!! A lot of people are being killed in Sudan; why aren't we there? Or in Somalia? As it is, a lot of people are being killed EVERYWHERE, but there's not OIL everywhere, or other opportunities for profit by greedy ol' Uncle Sam. You Conservatives don't want to leave Iraq cuz you just can't stomach another defeat like the 'Nam. You think that admitting the obvious loss in Iraq somehow tarnishes the whole military, vets included. The ironic thing is, that it's YOU who are riding on EMOTION in refusing to see the truth and instead holding onto your "love of the corps" as some unstated rationale for continuing to support the Murderer-in-Chief! And now I understand your disdain for "emotions"; had that drilled out of you mercilessly in boot camp huh, grunt? SCARY! Ah well, I guess you guys are just products of your "programming" and no logical appeal to sanity is going to get thru to ya. Booboo, N. Korea is only negotiating since we opened a dialogue--definitely NOT in Bush's original plan! "

" bobbo...sing and dance with flowers in our hair and hum and praise allah?? arent we being a little dramatic here? i mean really... not everyone who is a democrat is a freaking hippie... thats like saying every republican is an old wrinkly grumpy unhappy at home man. as far as the troops being pulled immediately out, i completely understand why that cant happen... but maybe if we could have some sort of serious timeline, how are we going to continue to send more troops over there and it really doesnt feel like pres bush has any intentions of booking return flights for these soliders. I support our troops 100% I thank them for being brave and defending our country, for giving me the right to sit here and complain about you people who are being so idiotic. But that does not mean I have to defend our ignorant president, and his selfish ways, I stand behind our troops the young men and women who on a daily basis put their lives on the line, for karl, aj, bobbo, chris and me.....but i do not.. and will not ever stand behind president bush.. that man is on his own and the sooner 2008 gets here the better off we will be... he needs to go. "

" everything george bush has done during his term as the president he has done to benefit himself or his colleagues, now granted somewhere down the line.. you may have benfited but as far as I'm concerned a president is elected so that he can make the best choices and be the word for our country, you cant argue with the fact that our president is a very selfish man, always worrying about number 1... and unfortunately that does not benefit everyone else... as far as the great things he has done for this country... please people... this country would be far better off if george bush had never been elected and maybe the whole bush family moved to Iraq themselves... "

" Karl-I find it disturbing in your world travels you bash our president!! I don't care what your opinion of him is. I do work with our troops everyday. Funny thing is they do not tell me they are not welcome by the people and the pictures they bring back show exactly how much they are appreciated. Unfortunately the news doesn't see fit to show any of these. And yes my comrades/friends are in the danger zones. Some were in the Tobar Towers when they were bombed and have Purple Hearts for their wounds. So don't sit in Auburn NY telling me how many of our troops don't support the war. Because you see they believe in fighting terrorist in their country, not ours. Are they happy to be away from their families, absolutely not but they swore to defend the United States of America and that's what they feel they are doing. It is not the majority you see whining about having to go to war. By the way I travel extensively to numerous military installations around the country. "

" Once again AJ, deflect-deflect-deflect. Apparently you missed the part where I stated I was a veteran and I'm too old to re-up, I tried. Your chickenhawk remark is an ad hominem, since calling me a "coward" or "chickenhawk" does not address the argument for the use of military force; it is only name-calling that attepmts to stifle actual debate. "Nuance" according to Mirriam-Webster Dictionary means: a subtle distinction or variation -or a subtle quality -or sensibility to, awareness of, or ability to express delicate shadings (as of meaning, feeling, or value). H.J.RES.114 is very specific in its scope, it gives very specific guidelines which were followed. There wasn't much, if any, nuance in this bill. I'm quoting John Hawkins-"It takes a lot more integrity, character, and courage to be a conservative than it does to be a liberal. That’s because at its most basic level, liberalism is nothing more than childlike emotionalism applied to adult issues." "

" One of our counties biggest critics, former French President Jacques Chirac, is being questioned on corruption charges by a panel of french Judges. Another thing you won't here in the liberal media is how Bush's stance on N Korea (strongly criticized by dems), has finally paid off and they've shut down their nuclear reactors. That's gotta infuriate AJ, Karl, and Brew. Well at least you guys can still pray for Iran to continue to threaten the world. Don't worry, when the dems win in '08, we'll surrender and you can sing and dance with flowers in our hair with your new muslim brethren...uh...well maybe not sing and dance cause I think thats calls for castration under muslim law. But, hell you can humm and praise Allah and burn American Flags. "

" AJ/Karl, I realize you want troops out of Iraq immediately, but don't you care what will happen when we leave? I realize you don't support our American foreign policies and defense strategies, but why do you so vigorously defend the enemies' defense strategies? Don't you realize their foreign policy is convert or be killed? They don't just want to kill George Bush, they want you dead too. What are the Dems plans to protect our way of life? I don't like the democrat's current appeasement plans which seems to want us all praying to Allah. "

" Boobo that 14% approval is for congressional democrats AND republicans "

" We're angry cause of morons like you Chris. Again, if you feel so strongly you should sign up or shut up. Legal documents are carefully crafted and often very nuanced. You just continue to expose your ignorance about every topic you've written about here. Your opinions are worthless when they are based on such unmitigated nonsense. "

" Well AJ, your chickenhawk remark is typical liberal "insult". I'm a US Navy vet so I have had the opportunity to serve my country. I was an honor thing with me but I'm sure you know nothing about that. As far as Hussein and 9/11 goes, no I don't believe he had anything to do with it. But, he did harbor and finance terrorists and their organizations and that is a proven fact. I see all the emotion that the liberal posters have, you can feel the anger growing when they are asked to provide proof to substantiate their stance. Debate is to liberals like sunlight is to Dracula. For example: I too want our troops home when the job is done. If we leave immediately, there will be chaos and murder on a large scale. I don't think Karl or AJ are able to grasp what will happen with a quick pullout. I would refer you to what happened when we left Viet Nam. Over 2 million people were slaughtered by the communists. Something similar would happen in Iraq, maybe not on that scale, but still an enormous amount of lives would be lost. But I guess they don't count to Karl and AJ. AJ brings up the "nuance" of the bill that was voted on in Congress that gave GWB the authority to invade, not the actual bill itself, but the "nuance". I don't think I'd like him as a lawyer. The law doesn't work on "nuance", it works on facts. And Karl, the Islamic fundamentalists seem to hate what we stand for: equal rights for women, freedom on religion, freedom of speech, etc...you are the one who needs to do some research and face the ugly facts that the extremists want us all to be Muslim or live under them as kafir in dhimmitude or be dead. Being nice to them won't make them go away. It is amazing that liberals consider themselves the party of peace unless you don't buy into what they are selling. They seem to emote like children and their "rage" has become such a staple of their discontent, one cannot take them seriously without risking a great deal of sanity. They havea combination of weak, perveted symbolism, base knowledge of human nature, and naive, "babe-in-the-woods" immaturity. I also think the liberals are so angry is because their agenda has not been sucessful. "

" WHAAAAAAAT?????!!!! The Citizen's editors allow "BUTT-SLAMMED" in a post but you still can't type "POR-N": (you know, as in "dirty pictures") ?!?!?!?!?!? Who's in charge over there??? WHY CAN'T I TYPE "POR_N" ?!?!?!?!?!?! "

" Right on about the CIA Karl. I love how these people constantly trot out the old canard about them hating our freedoms - isn't that a riot? Although the ministry of truth has largely ignored the subject, all you wingnuts should look into the sordid history of the CIA. Lots of material out there in books (although I recognize your comprehension skills are a bit week) by ex CIA officers and agents. Many books on the Church hearings as well. Lays all this stuff bare and is part of the historical record, and goes to prove the revisionist history of the wingers is a complete and utter fraud. "

" Karl, don't you think that Bobbo, Chris, Dan, and dirtysanchez would make Hitler proud? Perfect brownshirts. Heil Bush! The Ministry of Truth has done its job well, eh? By the way all you wingnuts, the economy is on life support. Wait till all the ARMs reset. It's bad enough now, but foreclosures are going to go through the roof. Cheap and easy money was the only thing driving what there was of this economy, allowing people to use their homes as an ATM machine. That has come to a screeching halt and the brown stuff is getting ready to hit the fan. And if you really believe the government numbers on unemployment, I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you. "

" O yea im sorry forgot why we are there for real WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION,ha IRAQ WAS NOT THE COUNTRY THAT BOMBED THE TRADE CENTER ,BUSH WAS IRRATIONAL AND ACTED FOR ALL WRONG REASONS AND THIS WAS 1 THAT COULD HAVE BEEN WORKED OUT DIPLOMATICALY AND I WILL BET MY LIFE BUSH GOES DOWN LIKE A BAD HABIT "

" I think that I am going to have a Tomatofest, and Friday night happy hour over in Iraq. I mean, what a great idea to promote the fun side of America. we can't do it here in Auburn now, so.... They need to realize that we are not savages. Maybe I'll send them all a nice religious card with my depiction of Allah and me at Spitit's. If they think we're all buddies, maybe they'll leave us alone. "

" Gee AJ, are you really that angry? It is my belief that someone who takes agressive words/stances, such like yourself, is hiding the fact that they are bringing emotions into the argument instead if intellect. We are doing the right thing placing ourselves in the middle east. When was the last time, you worried about your well being? The terror networks will only get stronger unless someone steps in to interupt their agenda. Are you worried when you fly, or congregate in a market? No? Its because we have interupted the terrorists agendas. AJ and Karl--are you ready to bend over and be butt slammed by the radical Islamists? Its going to happen if we allow them to come onto our soil again and set up camp. "

" I'm also curious about how Chris, Bobbo, and Dan support the troops. You claim to support the troops and the Dems don't. I'm curious to know what you mean by that. Frankly unless you're over there with them you don't support them any more than any other taxpayer does, and that includes Democrats. Then again, logic has never been a strong suit for any of you, nor has reading comprehension. It's obvious you don't understand nuance, otherwise you would know we did not live up to the terms of those resolutions and this war IS illegal. I'll say this again, if you really believe in this illegal war you should have the courage of your convictions and enlist - the surge needs you. But you're probably just cowards. "

" Tell me something Chris, Bobbo, and Dan - do you believe Saddam Hussein had anything to do with the WTC 9/11 attacks? "

" Congress can't do anything because everytime they try, bush vetos it. Say what you want about the democratic congress but we all know who has the final say. why bother with bills if the prezo is just gonna veto it. WHY BOTHER!?! "

" Dan, the terrorists don't "hate our freedoms"--they hate our predatory, hypocritical, contradictory and self-serving foreign policies which have included political assassinations, funding and supporting murderous dictators and regimes, starting wars by covert means for our own aims and gains, and mostly, killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children (and other civilians)through starvation by the ill-considered Iraqi sanctions WHICH THE CIA KNEW WOULD RESULT IN EXTENSIVE CIVILIAN CASUALTIES through disease, starvation, and lack of medical care. Go ahead. Do the research if you've got the stomach to face the truth. What a great country huh? "

" AJ, gotta hand it to ya, you pretty much covered my response to Chris's pathetic ignorance--I guess we know who posted that original comment to begin with, huh?! Chris, here's some more points-to-points of your original assertions. 1)the Iraqi people THEMSELVES want us out of Iraq! 2)the Iraqi's themselves and 95% of people I've PERSONALLY talked to in my extensive world travels hate George Bush! American troops ARE killing innocent women and children by the dozens, if not hundreds if you count the cavalier bombing 4)the Americans ARE an occupying force and the Iraqi people themselves say so! 5)the war IS about oil--why else would we be building dozens of permanent mega-bases over there, smartypants? 6) Bush LIED, LIES, WILL LIE-PERIOD! 7)the war IS ALREADY LOST! 8) Bush had an agenda to fill and did rush the war, but you're right-in the end, we were going to war NO MATTER WHAT! But keep talkin' Chris...there's a sick fascination with watching someone run headlong into an intellectual brick wall over and over again...BTW: I predict that, before the Nov. elections, America WILL be "hit again" by "terrorists"--to scare the voters again into voting for another warmonger, or,--ala Hitler at the end of WWII--to "punish" the American people for not "being worthy", i.e., not "believing" in Cheney's mad, sick, murderous dream. You just watch and see... "

" AJ, of course the majority of Americans want troops out of Iraq, but not until goals are met. Bush may have the lowest approval ratings for a president but the Democrat controlled congress has really set the record with a 14% approval rating. Thats 14% AJ!!! Only 14% of Americans approve of the Democrat controlled congress who has managed to do absolutely NOTHING!!!!! What have they done in the past 2 years. Chris listed (better than I can) the great things the Bush admin has done (booming economy, jobs everywhere, growth and prosperity). Even the poor in this country have more than most people on earth. What have the Dems done except b*t$h and moan for the last two years. The dems only goal is to raise taxes, smother this booming economy, and milk the poor for everything they've got. The dems care more about trashing Bush than working together to protect our future. God forbid the dems recognize that Bush did somethings right like cut taxes, but no, that would wake Americans up to the fact that tax cuts helped everyone. The dems will just keep preying on their poor/ignorant voter base. They want and need to keep the public dumbed down and taxed into poverty so they have "people to save". "

" AJ I say We finish off the terrorists off for good. Considering We where not in Iraq in 1993. Why did they try to bomb the world trade center then? The fuzzy math dosen't add up.The truth is they hate our freedoms. They will leave us alone. When the US becomes a califate. "

" Actually, bluefin, it is more than just one day of the year and you also have to consider all of the practice time put into these races. People start practicing months in advance. I do think that people complain too much about the little things (as a way to avoid the much bigger issues the world is facing) but I also think that rockefeller and east lake road speeds are too high for bicyclists to be traveling on. Rockefeller is very curved and isn't the best ground to travel on. It is an accident waiting to happen. However, if you take the races into the city, you are interfering with more traffic. i guess it's just a lose-lose situation. As for the walkers on the city streets, that's a whole 'nother story. ;) "

" Well AJ, you've outlined where you really stand as a liberal American. Lets see what you covered: Blame America first, our troops are the real terrorists (but you support the troops-right?), the war is lost, the war is for oil that we never seem to get, United Nations Security Council Resolution 1441 (as well as Resolutions 660, 661, 678, 686, 687, 707, 715, 986 & 1284) was/were non-existent, H.J.RES.114: Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002 is a figment of my imagination apparently. Please forgive me if I forgot anything. Go back to reading your Chomsky and Zinn and watching your well worn copy of "The Motorcycle Diaries". It really is a shame that you don't realize that the US is the greatest country in the world, but there is always someone to take what they have for granted. "

" I was going to comment on what chris had written and then i saw what AJ wrote and I agree with about 98% of it... chris... lets be honest here...out of all those "facts" that youve just listed for us... lets compare and contrast for a moment the good things president bush has done vs the bad things he has done.. i guarantee you... the bad will outweigh the good by a ton... even republicans hate him.. open your eyes and see the light, sunshine. "

" To Hmmmm: I can tell you many ways this country is better. By the way, its been 6 years (liberal math I suppose). As of June 2007, we have an unemployment rate of 4.5% which is historically low. Rise in wages to $17.38 on average. Dow just hit 14,000 which is a boon to anyone with stocks or a 401k. Seems like the tax cuts actually work. Guess what, we haven't been attacked since September 2001. That isn't by accident. True, there have been a few defections from supporting Bush, but not many and most of those are RINOs (Republican in name only). Bush certainly has his faults with some of his policies but it isn't the chicken little scenario that the left likes to dramatize. "

" Your ignorance/stupidity never fails to amaze me Chris. Do yourself and the world a favor and stop drinking the kool-aid. On point 1. It is more than just dems that want us out of Iraq. It is the majority of Americans, and virtually all of the rest of the world. And the only terrorists in Iraq (besides the ones we created, are ourselves. But you don't know enough about history to recognize this fact. On point 2 - This is correct, but leaves out scores of level headed republicans who have come to their senses, and the rest of the world. He is the most hated president in history, and with good reason. Are you going to also argue that the whole world loves terrorists now? On point 3 - this is all true - you just are too ignorant to notice. On point 4 - see previous remarks on point 3. On point 5 - it's not all about oil, but it is for the most part. On point 6 - see previous remarks on point 3 and 4. On point 7 - ditto. On point 8 - ditto again. Bush did not get authorization from the UN nor approval from Congress and he did not exhaust diplomatic means regardless of what the likes of Limbaugh and Colter tell you. I really do not understand how you can continue to believe proven liars. On your last comment - Democrats, at least claim they want the troops home, which is a better way to support them than to keep using them as cannon fodder to enrich a handful of rich elites. I don't know if it is more stupidity or ignorance on your part, but whatever it is, I think there is little hope for you if you can't tell that the people you listen to are pathological liars. "

" Funny thing though majority of republican party is bailing out on BUSH and can u tell me ,a couple things Bush has done good for this Country,8 years of waste ,when all other countries are getting stronger we are getting weaker in every way "

" Karl, I think the Dem/terrorist shared agenda the post refers to that fact that both terrorsts and Dems want the US to surrender its war against radical islam and Iraq. "

" Here you go Karl: It sure isn’t easy to differentiate Democrats from terrorists these days. 1) Both Democrats and terrorists want American troops out of Iraq. 2) Both Democrats and terrorists hate George W. Bush. 3) Both Democrats and terrorists claim American troops are killing and harassing innocent women and children in Iraq. 4) Both Democrats and terrorists claim American troops are an occupying force. 5) Both Democrats and terrorists claim that the war in Iraq was all about oil. 6) Both Democrats and terrorists claim that Bush lied to get the congress to agree to the war against Saddam. 7) Both Democrats and terrorists claim that America is losing the war in Iraq. 8) Both Democrats and terrorists claim that Bush “rushed” into the war, and neither appears to have noticed the year of delay while gathering numerous UN and congressional resolutions and authorizations. But, to be sure, there is one way to tell Democrats from terrorists: Democrats claim that they support the troops, while terrorists don’t. "

" ...Chris, is that what Ann Coulter had to say on the matter, oh Shining Font of Wisdumb-Queen she? "

" I'd like to challenge the idiot who posted about the Democratic party to list the "terrorist agenda" points which they allege that the Democrats agree with. What a stupid, ignorant post...really, Citizen; was there no other choices today? "

" Finally, rd speaks a few words of wisdumb. "

" Reid, Pelosi and the rest of the moonbats are falling all over themselves to surrender in Iraq. The latest cut-and-run bill thankfully was defeated after the Democratic slumber party Harry Reid put together last night. The Demorcrats knew well enough this bill wouldn't pass; they just wanted to send a message to the terrorists that Islam had a kindred spirit amongst American liberals. "

" It's only one day out of the year that this race goes on and you complain about it? How about the teenagers that walk four or five span across the road and force you the driver to go around them - when there is a sidewalk? Who do they think they are? "

" Its more important hate Bush than to worry about silly terrorist! "