" Hey PWeller, thanks for the honest criticism and the compliment. I'm not sure where you're coming from about putting words in DD's foul mouth; I simply wrote what I read. And to be honest with you I agree 100% about not having to learn Spanish-even though I already can speak it reasonably ok. Yo la habla cuando estoy en Espana, entiendo? And even though I'm an Atheist I really don't get freaked out by a manger scene. However, it's a slippery slope, and unfortunately the zealots out there who have pushed for a "Christian nation" don't seem content to leave it at that--but that's another thread. And to be 100% honest, I have nothing at all against the rank and file Conservative "average Joe's"; to label them all as I have accused them of doing would be hypocritical. But it's the Authoritarian, bullying Conservatives who are used to blowing through what should be civil discussions by egregiously violating the unwritten rules of gentlemenly discourse, and who use "shock and awe" verbal assaults that walk on the fightin' side of me. You can see that they're not used to getting it back in spades, but I'm as good at giving as I am at getting...Anyway, I honestly also dismiss the charge of insinuating racism; I don't play that card unless it's patently obvious, but you're entitled to your perspective. Ciao "

" I am a moderate, and I agree with both Karl and DD on some of their points. The one thing that keeps me from being truly liberal is that they do try to force everyone into curbing their beliefs so as to not offend anyone. One point brought up is the English as a first language situation. Why should we pick up the costs of teaching illegal aliens, as well as, making our legal residents learn another language just to survive? Why do we have to take a manger scene down? Why is it not right for us to go after suspects of terrorism? Those few examples are common sense. Karl---you seem to go overboard when going after conservatives. I know quite a few of them, and they do try to help people out, and don't mind getting their hands dirty. Then again, I know of a few that are despicable. I guess no one will ever be right in the big picture. Also, I agree with him not giving his name. You did try to put words into his mouth. I don't think his rant was racist at all--you were trying to insinuate it in your own way. Anyway, Karl, you seem to know most of your stuff, and can express it--its the best thing about America. "

" Karl, I'm so glad you're an expert on everything, I feel better now. I'll go back to eatin possum pie, and marry my cousin. Anyway, you bore me. yawn. "

" yawn................ "

" Oh man! You guys kill me! First, Chris, I respect you for signing your name to your opinion, not like some cowards...but citing the arch-villain of Conservatism as some kind of generous, virtuous philanthropist??!! Oh man, since you're obviously just a bit naive about how the real world works, let me educate you. When profiteering thieves like Cheney steal unaccounted-for billions by doing despicable things like engineering a war-for-profit in a foreign land, they simply tap into the Good 'Ol Boys, network whose lawyers and accountants set them up with nice, fat UNTRACEABLE offshore bank accounts and tax shelters--as a way of paying him back for all the nice, pro-business laws that he and his constituents passed to help-you guessed it!-rich people like themselves and their constituents. But Ol'Scowl knows that he's gonna get killed on legit income taxes if he isn't able to write some-or most of it-off, so he "donates" a huge chunk of it to charity to manipulate the system, come out ahead, and look admirably philanthropic(real important for a "water boarding’s-no-problem-for-me type of guy like Dick). Get it? I can't believe he actually fooled you with that one! Remember, you yourself used the magic words;” REPORTED income"... (Uh huh...) I, for one, am deeply cynical of "Conservative generosity" For whereas Conservatives have been real good these past 6 years at throwing money away like it was confetti(anyone remember Katrina?) there is a difference between allocating money to a project as a politically necessary gesture, and actually caring enough to have a plan to help people(or win a war!)--think of it as the way that some people buy Christmas gifts...some people go out and diligently search for ONE meaningful gift for each person on their list; others simply shove a $20 in an envelope and scribble a name on it. One person cares--the other has simply made the gesture. Secondly, while Conservatives may statistically donate more on paper, what really matters is the intentions of the donor and the consequences to the recipients. Conservatism shall forever wear the shame of the Katrina response-in fact, Bush did nothing until public pressure and outrage forced him into action-and then bungled the job completely. And while Liberals may not, on paper, donate as much, the social programs advocated and implemented by Liberal administrations were designed to benefit ALL citizens--(and they really did, until Reagan started slashing them) not just a favored, carefully-chosen constituency. This is, in fact, "What Jesus would do" In fact, I'm amazed by the narrow scope of your argument--that you don't support "Liberal" programs because you "worked hard for your money and you deserve it" Bravo! I couldn't agree more! But what we're talking about here is not JUST the UNWILLING to work, but the UNABLE to work. Those in our society that Hitler once systematically euthanized in his own. What do we do with them, Chris? You know, you people always complain about welfare hogs-well the religious-oh, sorry-"faith-based" groups are simply the Conservative pigs-at-the-trough. They've squandered millions upon millions in tax dollars for programs that have been PROVEN failures(Abstinence campaigns, Prison Ministries, Condom-less AIDS propaganda)--but they're more than willing to help your party at the polls so you keep them on the dole.Hey, in the end, look at the state of the nation--the middle class is being eviscerated, we are living in an econo-fascist big-business-dominated society and the rich keep getting richer--and the poor not only keep getting poorer but are increasing exponentially every day. (In fact, you could argue that the reason Conservatives give what they do is out of guilt?) AT some point you can't deny that this whole Grand Conservative Social Experiment has been a disaster for all but maybe .01 percent? I mean, really Chris-at what point are you willing to admit the obvious?! One thing's for sure--there certainly hasn't been ANYTHING that the Liberals had to do with ANY of it! I suggest you turn off "Jerry Springer" to broaden your scope of humanity a bit. Now to you, DD. You know, if you want to maintain your cozy anonymity, it's no skin off my back; I'll just tell you that you must be pretty thick-skinned not to worry about how it completely tarnishes your credibility, but hey, that doesn't bother some folks... As for my manner and time of writing, this whole exercise is helping me learn to type on my new computer, so I'm indulging you this reply. Besides, I was working all day-not like you lazy Conservatives who sit around on the "internets" all day...but I digress...Only two things I feel compelled to address from your latest drivel; Liberals' "forcing their beliefs on others"-especially in the context of religion--are you SERIOUS??!! Do you mean in the way that Liberals have fought to defend the intentions of our founding fathers to maintain a separation of church and state?! What a hoot! I have an assignment for you, DD; look up "Comstock's Law" and learn how the Puritan fanatic Anthony Comstock created a draconian Vice Department and used it to intimidate and censor the Free Press, politicians and ordinary citizens. DO some research on the sponsors of Prohibition and the religious underpinnings of that pogrom; research the ERA Amendment and see how religious groups successfully conspired to defeat Equality for all women; ditto that for opponents of the Civil Rights movements of the 60's, the KKK, and the White Supremacist movements-all have religious foundations. And while you're at it, do some probing into the Biblical basis and motivations of the opponents of the Emancipation movement during the Civil War--these to start, if you please. In fact, THANK GOD for Liberal's efforts to free humanity from the yoke of religious repression! Your ignorance on this topic is almost quaint. Secondarily, for all your lofty aspirations and imaginative high-ground claims to noble motives in this thread, it is your own words indelibly secured here in which you have insulted the "retards", called Mr. Miller a "jackass"-unbidden-called into question his integrity for voicing his opinion(which you would claim to "value") gone on a rant against those unfortunates who need public assistance, and, predictably sunk to insulting me with the curious term "drama queen"(huh?-moi?!)So what were you saying about that stump in your eye? "

" What's a "rax colector"? "

" If Jesus was a Liberal Socialist, why did he drive the rax colectors out of the Temple? "

" Karl---BooHoo Number one, I am not white, and not a robber baron you drama queen. You must have been up all night penning your rebuttle to my last letter. How many times did you type and erase it to get it just right? My name is not important, as you can see that I get a rise out of you without using it anyway. You'd be suprised at who I am though. Are you turning red, and gritting your teeth yet? I mean I don't want you to be mad, just receptive that someone else other than the liberals are right sometimes. I have always strived to help those less fortunate, and help those that are able, to survive on their own. I have never hid behind a bible verse to justify any selfish motives, and certainly have never banished a social problem to the dark so that it is out of sight. I prefer to give those who can handle it, the tools to succeed, and recognize that not all of us can survive even with the best of tools. I am glad there is a safety net for the latter. You are assumptive in your latest, that I am opinionated, and have no room for other's opinion. In fact I am quite to the contrary. Give me a good reason to question my opinion, and I may suprise you by changing my stance. You missed a few points--Liberals have forced their opinion on everyone for decades--for instance--the banishment of all christian values for fear of offending sensitive non Christians- we wouldn't want to hurt anyones feeling making them learn English as their first language in America- capital punishment is Cruel, forget about what a monster has done to another human being- and on and on and on. In addition, all of my African American friends understand my stance on affirmative action. All of them may not agree, but they have recognized that with some hard work, and education, you don't need to be given a job because of your color etc. They also recognize that I don't treat them differently because of skin color. Black people are by and large NOT stupid, and lazy. Do you believe that as a whole, they really need help to survive? If you do, then you are assuming that they are stupid, lazy, or a combo of both. Anyone can get ahead in this country today. Conservatives aren't holding anyone back. I went to college, and am successful, even thought I was not well to do. I don't sit around and whine that the system betrayed me because I had food stamps, or holes in my shoes. My black/Latino friends and I respect one another for everything, recognizing that we are all different. We're are human beings, and color has little to do with ability, determination, personality, friendship, loving someone, etc. Boy, I think you hit numbers 1-9 on Chris Vannote's rules for the Liberal's debate. I wrote nothing hateful did I? (well, I used the "R" word) I just merely asked Andy to put his "money" where his mouth was, called him on a few points he made, and you see what happened? You started on this rampage of hateful "everything" that doesn't matter. You've proven that even if there is nothing there, you'll make it into something--ie the racial thing--I ignore people in need, etc. Anyway, you can type what you want Karl, but the simple fact of the matter is that while you may have some good points, they get lost in all of your holier than thou, opinionated, crap you peddle. "

" Dick and Lynn Cheney donated what was the largest amount of money in history to charity by any public servant... But then again it was a paltry $6.87 million, more than three-quarters of the reported income of the Cheneys. Read this again: The Cheneys gave $6.87 million to charity in 2005. This is where conservatives and liberals differentiate. We are much more generous while liberals want the government to take care of all of society's ills. BTW, I am a white, heterosexual male who happens to work for his money. The "robber baron" cliche is lame. I deserve my money because I work for it. I didn't put myself in a position to be poor. I didn't have children that I couldn't afford, I got an eduation and I showed some initiative. I certainly pay my share in taxes so that someone who acts in an irresponsible manner (ie: going to prison, having children and relying on the state to pay your way, etc...) You seem to know nothing of what a true conservative is. We want to give people the tools to be successful, not just give them handouts. The old saying "Give the man a fish and he eats for a day, teach the man to fish and he eats for a lifetime" is appropriate. "

" (chuckle, chuckle)...thought about it all night, didn't ya, DD?! Yeah well, hey when ya get around to it why don't you have the guts to type your full name?--or do you lack the courage of your convictions, DD? I'll bet all of your African-American friends would just love to know your true colors. Anyway, "your kind" is always the same-you rail against the slackers from the relative comfort of your surroundings, lacking the empathy to envision yourself as one of the less fortunate. You are incapable of concieving that there are people who truly HAVE tried and for a myriad of reasons-some beyond their control-simply fail. You worry that someone out their might be getting a bigger slice of the pie than you, about infringing on your sense of entitlement as a member of the "priveleged class"-white,heterosexual males who have, since the days of the robber barons enjoyed dominant influence in society, skewed your way by dirty money and self-righteously justifying it by a Calvinistic interpretation of the Bible. If you'll study our history, DD, you'll see that many of the most ruthlessly rapacious despots made their money by exploiting the poor and the immigrants, and went to church every Sunday, completely confident that the were simply better than others and "deserved" their wealth, because the were "descendants of the chosen people whom God has chosen over all others". There are remnants of this today in today's Conservatism. "Your kind" has always enjoyed your priveleged place in society, and when you go on your rants against the lowly and the less capable, what you're really telegraphing is your fear that someday you and yours might actually have to think, to actually care. You want a "only the strong survive" society because the truth is, "your kind" already has it's safety nets firmly in place and simply doesn't have to try too hard. You're afraid that when you get to the table you might have to share cut a smaller piece than your bloated bellies are used to. The point that Miller was trying to make is that it is both ironic and obscene that "your kind" are often the FIRST to talk about your alleged "moral superiority" and to invoke the powerful name of Jesus--when you collectively seem to have no idea whatsoever what the man really meant--or worse, you do, don't raally care or agree, but understand how to co-opt his teachings and name to suit your own agenda. Your Conservatives have consistently gutted social program that help NOT ONLY the admitted subgroup of lazy slackers, but the diseased, the ill, the forgotten elderly, victims of fraud and crime, the victimized, the least of those among us. Your bottom line seems to be "if you're not like me, you don't deserve it" - which is probably why Conservatives are always calling for "unity". It's an immature ideology ripped right from the most insipid high school cliques. You want simple answers,black and white solution, reduce every solution to a talking point or slogan-or, if applicable, a chapter and verse from the Bible, because you really don't care to waste the energy thinking about how to help "those people" on the other side of the street, when it's just so much easier to demonize them, or -as one Conservative Citizen columnist once endorsed-to simply "label" them.(voice of the SNL charachter "church lady" here;"How conveeeenient!") You are authoritarian in nature and despite giving a lot of lip service to "diversity" and the recognition of suggestions and solutions from the other camp, in the end, you really have no use for anyone else's opinions or solutions that contradict your own--but you recognizze the social leverage in claiming that you do. Liberals, on the other hand have given the world social programs that truly echoed Jesus' teachings--but that infringed on rich, white men's sense of entitlement and privelege. Liberals know that a society's--or a man's--greatness is based not on the status and welfare of it's greatest citizens, but on the manner in which it is willing to care for it's least. That doesn't mean surrendering the asylum to the inmates; it means recognizing that those people MATTER TOO. Yes, it's a complex, messy, confusing mandate at tims and there are few pat, simple solutions--but what matters is that Liberals are willing to recognize the problem, while "your kind" would just as soon banish it to the dark, shadowed corners of society where your guilded elite won't have to trouble their clear conscience's by acknowledging the outstretched hand. Does that clear it up a little for ya, DD? It's not to late to be contrite, ya know... "

" DD, here are the rules that liberals seem to use during a debate: 1: Attack Your Opponent 2: Switch Your Arguments 3: Raise The Bar 4: Attack The Source 5: Blame America First/Moral Equivalency 6: Wear Hawk's Clothing 7: Hijack the Argument 8: Play the Hate 9: Return to Start From my experience in dealing with the liberal mindset, it seems to end up being emotion over intellect. "

" Karl--"Me and my kind?" What does that mean? If I had said that, you'd have a parade downtown because someone attacked your character. The Liberals have long been complainers with no solutions. Take for example the Democratic party--Hey everyone, lets give all of this money to anyone who wants it (ie welfare). Lets not hurt their feelings by telling the able bodied ones to get a job, and contribute to our system. Hey, lets hire more African Americans beacause there aren't enough working in a particular industry (ie affirmative action). Maybe a great deal of African Americans don't aspire to be fireman in NYC, so why do we have to hire less than qualified people because the qualified African Americans have no interest in it? Now, I am not taking digs at the African Americans. Some of my best friends through the years are black, and they are offended at the prospect that anyone (regardless of color) is given a leg up over a more qualified person because of their race. I am very sorry for how the blacks were treated over the past generations, but I don't owe anyone anything because of how someone else's forefathers treated them. I don't ever remember ever wronging someone over the color of his/her skin, but I am paying for it. Hey, maybe we should take the manger scene down because it might offend someone. Hey, don't let the Iraqi's hang Saddam, we don't believe in capital punishment. Hey, lets vote to send our service people over to Iraq, but lets vote in protest to not spend the money to properly equip them (ie John Kerry). Any other great ideas from the liberal front? "

" yawn.... "

" Karl, Do you live in your mom's basement? Or is it the garage. Also, how have the consevatives done you wrong. How have they prevented you from living a fulfilling life? "

" Karl--you too are, uh mentally challenged, uh, whatever is politically correct. Insightful, rational? What a joke. "

" DD, as a proud Liberal, I have to say "Thank You", sincerely, for reinforcing exactly the point that the brilliant Mr. Miller was trying to make. You've showed -and left no room for doubt-that "Liberal" is the best thing that one could aspire to be--simply because it's the FARTHEST thing from (shudder, gag) "Conservative". I gues I'd be pretty bitter too if my party had the golden opportunity to prove, for the last SIX YEARS(!), the superiority of Conservatism over Liberalism--and failed so utterly and miserably. Mr Miller insightfully, artfully points out how Conservatives have tried to ride the coattails of Moral Superiority by appropriating the undeserved mantle of "Christian" (in its most noble sense of the word) and yet, the entire country has seen through the charade and the backlash is here. ai feel sorry for you and your kind...NOT!! "

" Andy, my hat's off to ya...it's been a long time since I've read something as insightful, rational and emphatically stated in the Letters section as your submission. Thank you for having the courage to speak out against what for too long has been considered sacrosanct.but which needs to be held accountable, and called what it is-hatred in the name of Christ. Oh and uh...get ready to reap the whirlwind from the DuCaaynanites! "

" Joan--my conscience has gotten the better of me. Sorry for offending you, and anyone else for that matter. Now, would a liberal, flag burning, complainer even come close to apologizing for comments made? Probably not, they would say they have the right to say those things under the constitution. "

" Joan, I am sorry, that was pretty insensitive of me. Now for the funny remark--I have offended mentally challenged people everywhere by comparing them to liberals. "

" I can't believe "DD" used the word retard. Not only is that word offensive, it is very hurtful. You really should think before you type. "

" Andy--how much of your money have you given away? Do you give it all away? If you don't, you are coveting it. If you truly wanted to set an example, you'd give it all away, and trust the Lord to take care of you. There is nothing sac-religious about keeping your hard earned money. Put your money where your mouth is. Or do you not work? Do you live at home with Mom and Dad, and complain how the "system" and the conservatives have failed everyone? Thats what most of the ultra liberal are--complainers, without a plan to fix things. One of the biggest liberals out there (Big Al Gore) has more money than you or I could spend in our lifetime. John Kerry, the Kennedy's, most actors in Hollywood, need I go on? All of them hoard money. So, that argument against conservatives is quelled. Also, I am a conservative, but I close no one out if their idea makes sense. You talk about how we are selfish individuals--how about the retards, I mean liberals, that burn our flag--the same flag that flies over them while they are doing nothing but complain, and suck off our system. This is another example of a liberal attacking a conservative for not really being conservative enough. I find that most people are hypocrits. You, my friend have hijacked the title of hypocritical jackass if you don't give your money away, like Christ and serve your brothers. That is what you are saying everyone should do, right? You should remove the stump from your eye before the splinter from hers. Ok, next? "